Licensing Supplementary Committee - Wednesday, 22nd July 2020 at 7:30pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Licensing Supplementary Committee
Wednesday, 22nd July 2020 at 7:30pm 









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1 Minutes
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2 Declarations of Interest
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3 Business and Planning Act 2020 - Pavement Licence
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  1. Webcast Finished

when I was on hand to help them sorry of cloud your right sorry case a good evening everybody and welcome to the Licensing supplementary committee could councillors keep their video on and way because it's just us their own there are no public here tonight so but even hit the microphones to me unless they want to speak your as now as as normal and
the forms returned through the guidance I need to tell you that I can't seem to remember I don't know why
but if a member of the Committee loses internet connection or power can I please inform the Clerk immediately so that we can adjourn the meeting until the connection be restored and the policy of the hackney apologies tonight Claire
no apologies no apologies tonight and so welcome everybody and I'm going to reach out the officers hurt them as the present and then we got Petra to man whose our lawyer are faithful lawyer we have least Hooper from the from C R team she the manager and that's it really officers we have plus Claire Weezer of course who is are our Clerk who does an absolutely sterling job who I don't thank often enough for all the work that she does so the first thing I'd like to do is can we agree the minutes of the meeting held on the 22nd to halt a

1 Minutes

you've got 27 August 0 yeah course able a separate entry committee yes sorry so 27th August 19 I don't know who was there we're gonna have to just moralist agree them because if anybody can admit Brengle what happens over a year ago can we agree those yeah

2 Declarations of Interest

3 Business and Planning Act 2020 - Pavement Licence

formally agreed not to her thank you very much so and any Members have any declarations of interest in this business and Planning Acts 20 20 pavement licence do they own a café and having a pavement pavement party outside so no declarations of interest and so this we're going to be discussing tonight supplementary the and business Planning Act 20 20 for the pavement licence so this is a report regarding the new provisions under the business and Planning Act 20 20 with regards to pavement licences and off sales of alcohol
and I'm gonna invite Lisa Hooper if she could put a video on his well that we can see Uley so an took us through this
thank you Chair and I will try and through this so precious I can and then of the recently to the suggested anything that you think needs test I'm spent on it please delete match OK well don't so the businesses planning Bill was introduced on the 25th of June and has been brush free parliament and as reached Royal Assent we have now confirmed today sorry is now in in effect so there's been a very quick turnaround the government have have done in this whole process has been less than a month and here we are with a new piece of legislation that we now need to implement which is why are we here today so the aim of the Act was to enable businesses to operate around the existing social distancing guidelines which obviously restrict their capacity inside the premises and the the new measures that are introduced include as and the Chairs of the pavement licence in the changes to off-sales attachments for premises with premises licences and these measures are not going to be in place until the end of September 20 21 so to summarise the changes forecast off-sales the new act makes changes to the Licensing Act 2 thousand and 3 air so that any premises with a licence the permits sale of alcohol there for on the premises for consumption on the premises were now have automatic entitlement to sales of alcohol for consumption off the premises so they can sell alcohol for people to go and drink outside or elsewhere away from the premises this default extension does not apply however to premises where they have had their off-sales permissions revoked or refused in the last three years
businesses will be authorised for off-sales during the licensable hours up to a limit of 11 pm which is a recent amendment that's just come out of the the Act this week and will also applies to premises who currently have off-sales as well but may have limitations up to say a time I'm before 11 pm so everyone will now have the ability to so our coffee consumption off the premises and so 11 pm unless they have had there permissions previously vote the Act also pride provides an expedited off-sales review process and similar to the way that members will be familiar with the expedited process for serious crime and disorder the new Act provides the same sort of option to apply for expedited review where we've got concerns around sales of alcohol off the premises
the pavement licences has the aim of enabling basics' to have food and drink current consumed on the pavement so that businesses can put removable furniture on the pavement adjacent to their premises to sell food and drink or to sit and consume food and drink the customers to consume food and drink
this framework will supersede the existing framework which we is currently carried out by Martin to get this team and the like authorities Act 19 90 but it doesn't impact on existing premises so they can stay in place if the last as hot so wishes councils will be required to process applications in 14 days and a maximum fee of 100 pounds can be charged each application will be subject to a 7 day consultation period and then
temptations can be made and then obviously we have to consider those as path determining the application losses must be for a minimum of three months but can be granted for up to the end of the September next year and where a Council does not respond within those 14 days the licence will be deemed granted for 12 months subject to any conditions that we may have published on the website
just some update updates that came out of the Bill that was then obviously beach Royal Assent today some changes that were made this week are that licence holders was must make reasonable provision for outside seating where smoking is not permitted I think the aim behind that is obviously sort of public health aspects trying to ensure that if more people are seeing outside their not having to sit around smokers
and any sort negative impact that might come from that so we gonna have to add something I think you know conditions to reflect that changing the legislation and authorities must also have regard to the needs of disabled people when considering whether to grant a licence or not which we had already incorporated into the licence conditions but that the legislation is now stressing that we must have regard to that we're making our decisions and just some key considerations to know so part of the reason why we're here this evening is around delegations and agreeing a fee obviously LACA said before very short timescales around this obviously they only came in to the government no it's whereas any shoes by the governor
less than a month ago so we've obviously had very short time period to get to grips with this and put my absolute systems in place in order for us to be able to process these licences so that's what we're here this evening to try and agree there the proposed standard conditions is also key the statutory guidance has been produced by the government urges local authorities to agree some 0 and publish some standard conditions that they would like to apply to licences to enable the process to work smoother and ensure that licence applications are granted where they may have previously been and unacceptable and obviously with the aim of the conditions that we have drafted this to ensure that when licences are granted there then implemented with a clear guidelines around obstruction and prevention of public nuisance public safety the types of you Our furniture should be used and the times of use at the blast should be undertaken and the also it's very important it around any potential licenses that may not get determined obviously again due to the short timescale if they aren't determined by an officer they'll be deemed granted for 12 months so ensuring that there's a a set of standard conditions as published on the website will ensure that the those deem lot air granted licences will be granted with those standard conditions attached and we do have a Leica so that draft set of conditions which is in Annex Annex 2 and again just to so highlight LACA said before there may be some Members need to be made over the next probably few weeks possibly few months as we sort of understand the impact the pavement lattices might be having in the borough and on residents and businesses the GLA are also looking at a London wide sort of approach to what standard conditions as well which I'm yet to hear back from as well so there may be some changes remain many tomate to that Sir but at the moment that's the sort of kind of proposed set of conditions that were working with
just a few other things to highlight scope and potential loss of income to the council may come from this as I said it with regards to the fee there is a the maximum fee we can charge of 100 pounds and but that is not a fee based on a cost recovery sort of arrangement this more of a nominal fee really and it's also expected that existing licensees under the London Local authorities Act again which is licensed by matter skippers team
were unlikely to potentially decide that they're going to stop the their current licences and move over to the boys are cheaper and more straightforward process under the Poniou pavement licences so there may be a number of licences forecourts regime that may move over to this and then that could result in loss of income for the Council up until of see the 30th September next year there is a possible increase around public nuisance obviously this is all about alfresco sort of you know dining and drinking and businesses are using more over out outdoor space and with that obviously comes more noise and more use of the power of the high way more people around it's likely they will generate possible noise nuisance from that for neighbouring properties and and residents and you know possibly just visitors to the area so that is something that we have tried to as much as we can address in some other the conditions but it is likely we are going to see an increasing in complaints as more people are using the outside spaces during the covert period there was a short consultation time as I said before only seven days and then another seven days for determination period for the council showing total is 14 day process that is much shorter than what we're used to for example under the Licensing Act which has a 28 day consultation period so there is a real need to ensure that we are able to consult with people that that may be affected so are we looking at Road and residents' groups associations that we're aware of and trying to share information the point that we receive the but it is a very short process that we're going to be working with and the last point is just ran Equalities Officer said before there's been a clear drive in the act now to ensure that the new there is regard to the impact on disabled them people in obviously that's something that we looked out already and again we flagged them we have sort of highlighted in the conditions that there is going to be a need to have a minimum amount of space on the highway available any time and that that so size will also increase if the footfall in high footfall areas with their busier areas we expect more space to be available and additional things like we're not going to be allocating be allocating sable base for the use of of of pavement licences and that sort of thing so we have tried to cover that as much as we can in the conditions as well so just to to sort of summarise around the recommendations that we've we've put before Members this evening that just to run through as I know I sent her a further amendment later on after the first report was issued officers this was evolving we had to ask for further agreement from from you the seething so the first thing to note is to note the provisions of the acts around payment licences and and off-sales vocal at the second one was to agree the proposed fee of 100 pounds per pavement licence application third recommendation was to agree that this power will be applying local conditions to the pavement licences as outlined in sort of Annex 2 but lack of so there may be subject to some change over the next few weeks the fourth was to agree to delegate functions under the Act to both Executive Directors for community services and Housing Regeneration Environment so that we can then officers could move forward and implement this licensing regime the last one is now irrelevant because it was with regards to just and recognising that the recommendations that you are going to be looking at where around the Bill the Bill in the position of being still a Bill and not having reached Royal Assent but obviously today Hermé did meet Royal Assent so all of the the changes on our in force so we can disregard that one but I don't know if we have any questions that I can help with now I'm sure they're all look the other lead on the just before we take questions from Luther I forgot to the roll call of beginning of the meeting so I'm I'm going to call your Neymar and anything you put your microphone on just say that your present please it's the webcast that it's the form is where we have to conduct meetings now when their online so Councillor Powell
I'm Castleford Yanko
but she can see
we've lost her Councillor Hall her present thank you and Councillor Campbell present as the caller whereas then Castle Howard present because the wise present Chair and cuts earlier again thank you very much Claire you have a phone number for castled Yanko I think so yeah I'll give her cool OK thank you very much so sorry about that I should have done at the beginning of the meeting it was on I forgot to do that in my rush to start the meeting so I'm going to I'm now o anyone have any questions for Leith eyesore some pangs go up
OK I'm gonna take Councillor Elliott first than Councillor how than Councillor hole
Alison or just had a question about fear public liability insurance or NEM businesses that wanted to pick up the pavement like a thing is there a standard and ensuring that they can apply for because it seems quite specific I mean 10 million pounds indemnity for one incident that seems like a very unique top of insurance they would have to get that where would they get from I've changed that now I am to 5 billion because I think it was excessive
I can safely so what we're learning from you don't haven't as as we going along in the by a little bit burnt or so we're forgetting what Fifa from other boroughs and what they use and again we are reflected the that's the amount that as I said Bottas Gip as team who deal with the forecourt licences that's what they come any ask for so I'm trying to keep a standard with that so I have had brought that down now 2 5 5 million and I think that is it is a fairly standard amount the businesses would have in place already
thank you I just wondered about I think very much able it yet I think 10 million is a bit a bit too much
Councillor M Howard Glaser and after to get my head around this paper Our but I'm just wondering what happens if there are if there is an excess of smoking or drunken behaviour or whatever you know within within the main streets or anywhere really where it slumped happen what what the procedure if things are sort of getting out of and yet so again we would if it was around you softer disorder or public nuisance around alcohol consumption then we would deal with it probably under Licensing Act because obviously to be around the sale of alcohol and we would probably be bringing possibly bringing a review to yourselves in the usual way to perhaps put conditions on the licence all make amendment so we will take it through the usual process of of engagement support and then Forstmann and and that sort of thing
and in terms of the smoking obviously that's the again been highlighted in the legislation this week as a concern and an amendment has been made about that so again they've said that they want businesses to ensure that there is you know clear areas separate from smoking areas to ensure that people don't have to sit next right next to people who may be smoking so that there is a bit of the you know so
a gap especially thinks about 2 metre gap there asking to have between smoker smoking as a non-smoking areas I mean obviously traditionally in a lot of outside seating usually does have stop people smoking out there but I think this goes one step further to help try and address that in in by actually saying we have to have designated areas for non-smokers where there's food being served which often isn't something there would be on the licence anyway so this is as cravat she goes one step further than was probably most premises have in place already OK thank you very much thank you I'll take Councillor Hall and then Councillor Campbell has a question of that
thank you have got two quick wins one is about appeals I think already in the guidance and the it appeals may have to come to a committee or will they be dealt with by the officers I certainly don't it's 31 drum up anymore work for the Chair are recognised but appears do need to be dealt with independently and I suppose my substantial question is it's there's a lot of her comment about consultation with disability groups and others who use use the pavement them we don't have a second tier borough-wide disability organisation so how are you going to consult with people with disabilities about the regulations the your proposing and held on each application and
OK well I think we would have to identify any available sort of amenity groups around did that disable community that we could share those applications with again it's it's a sure it's a very short consultation time so we will do what obviously really will be expected around publishing the application online and then we will serve the application on you know the the relevance of groups that we can identify those areas that locally that may be impacted on the pagan I think potentially what what might be good is to trying hard she have a kind of consultation with like now meeting as such not based on each application but maybe just get some feedback from the locals of disability groups that would that we can identify and see if they've got any input or concern re if they've got concerns about how this may negatively impact their it's not members or let communities and and and you know we commenced work on that so I think that's something I could take away and try and have that conversation obviously like I said we have tried to put in place sort of you know
very clear kind of specification around the space it needs to be available in the pavement and that is in line with what is currently in place around forecourts so there shouldn't be any sort of additional shows out those for change in in approach in that sense so the light of the pavement Lassus's will still be granted with the same sort of arrangement that is currently in place and a four-course so there shouldn't be necessarily in a negative change in essence so we're hoping that that will ensure
that there is an urgent and negative impacts on those groups by do think Yes maybe we need to take this to people who are likely to be affected the safe there's any feedback they can provide the might for example shape maybe some conditions that we can put on licences
just to hold on hold on a moment coral and summary of the question before you you be so they wrote to unrated could the same issue that's all we'll sorry but you can come back on that because Councillor Campbell's awaiting us your happy with a call to take the club very sorry
I I don't mind because it's on the same issue is not going to get for the plays' just very brief recommendation to perhaps get in touch with Healthwatch OK thank you for that
thank you call for that so Councillor Campbell they could chair I've got a comment and a question the comment was around a designated area for non-smokers and I think he should be a designated area for smokers the smokers the ones who would be in the the minority and they're the ones that are will be affecting other people in the restaurant if you like so it's down to the restaurant cafe whatever is to find a space for smokers and I actually think that 2 metres is not any space at all for if you're a non-smoker and you'll see an Eton that's just my comment my question is around the delegated functions for the was the Executive Officer
so my concern with that is that at a ward level if the decisions have been delegated to the Executive Officer I as a ward councillor won't have enough information to share with our constituents now currently there so much dialogue going on in Blackheath around road closures although it is it's overwhelming and if the delegated functions are given to an Executive Officer and we are not in the loop and decisions to be made when we've had conversations about constituents and very concerned about that get at a ward level that Councillors need to be very very involved if there are some disk things happening within those wards or they don't make the decisions without consulting with the Councillors because the Councillors have an understanding of what is happening so it currently in Blackheath we've already been talking about you know there's lots of restaurants in Blackheath as a whole row of them at one part and if all of those restaurants want to have outside eating space who's going to have the space you know there's about five restaurants in one row and so what we decided is that there is some parking outside and we're going to take that parking away but we've done that with consultation with members and people live in Blackie so if and that's that was a long journey as well and because black departed is part of Greenwich we happy to have that conversation with Brynich councillors to so much of the Cern I'll just reiterate is that somebody else we making those decisions at a ward level and I think that we're on a hiding to something if we if we don't we don't keep the Kansas in Lib I hope I got that across thanks yes some out as much and anomaly southern as some say that thank you Councillor Campbell and in terms of the so so these hot you're you want to have the local ward councillor just mind verification so you you're you would like to have the local ward councillors in the area that's you there's under the delegated officer responsibility in order to to part two Grantley but pass the licences etc etc. I'm not sure how does that fit and the licensing law Petra
were it not so much licensing laws under these provisions these provisions Serco's those include was specifically say that it's not a marrow matter and it is for officers but what what sense is being requested that this proper consultation before steps are taken with the ward Councillors which is something quite different and I don't see how that that that's it's not unlawful that's something practical and sensible and really for the way forward for the borough and that the particular wards he was talking Blackheath for example my I think that's should be taken to it's not a matter of law as a matter of urgency in procedure OK thank you for that clarification picture and I'm sure the in Blackheath is gonna be hollows grief with you know because you've also got the Leagreen knock on you've got a lot with well you know there are a lot of things that are up in the air at the moment in and we're all drug juggling with them as as local ward councillors so so leases you want to respond to him Councillor Campbell as well yes sorry I I'm not sure I've probably explained myself way round so when we've asked of seat delegated authority from yourselves to the Executive Directors but obviously there will then be a further delegation from the Executive Directors down to offices at my level and obviously the the office I work with so and we will obviously process the application and we we will agree to grant the licences if we are we be feel that obviously they they are acceptable we always consult with ward councillors so in the report there is a list of consultees that we would like to I'm sure it's in the report I've written so many reports about this I apologise I can remember which one it was but I believe it is in there that there is a list of consultees and one of the on that list is Ward Councillors we all seem like in the same way with Licensing Act applications we always serve that on on the note on the record but all ward members get those e-mails so we will do exactly the same for pavement licences alongside responsible authorities and then obviously other embassies like the Blackheath Society for example we will serve the application on as many as widely as possible and obviously absolutely to ward councillors because again you you you would be the link between us or them and the community and you may have knowledge on those areas that we don't so we will rely on your input as well as we do for example you know it with the other applications that we process
thank you very much thank you though
does anybody else have any other question
all right said then can we achieve could you just out sorry sorry Chair just had one thing about him having a review at the annual review like we would do with other licensing supplementary matters to make sure that they come something comes back to us so as not to owners who don't want anything to owners is used to you and maintain it there there is just one thing Councillor whole it's a good idea but this is only going to last until I think was it September lately
21 yeah so if you were to have a review whatever the outcome is it wouldn't make much difference for very long
we're not be happy to bring up I've ever pool just to update on progress if that helps just you so update on how many of applied six-monthly I've had maybe given that the duration may be six-monthly than without sued or commute three agree that as a significant committee yes smarms upside was going on yeah yeah so
thank you for us that's agreed every six months so I am so further to that can we can use go the recommendations are going lease you'd like us to agree please yeah of course so that the the first one is the fee
the 100 pounds 200 pounds per application and the second one will be to the agreed that we will be applying local conditions to the licences and then the last one is to delegate functions under the Act to Executive Director Community Services and Executive Director of the Housing Regeneration and Environment to enable officers to implement the licensing regime and as I said obviously it will be initially divert delegated to those executive officers who were then further delegate of authority to other officers within services OK thank you very much for that and they set sui had a quick question
Hoober to agree the recommendations now thank you Les so you mentioned about bringing something back next year those not really a need would would that be something to give us a review of how this has gone during that time yet and that there was nothing thank you discuss with the greets every six months coming back every six months we can or how it's going so
or at the end so they can we agree the recommendations I wouldn't go through the whole has just walked away
OK I'm going to agree that the Committee agrees recommendations his back held on one moment please yes yes he agreed recommendations and agreed thank you very much thank you I'm I'm not going to hang this meeting that's the end of this meeting I'm going to as the end of the webcast as well thank you very much