Licensing Committee - Tuesday, 30th June 2020 at 7:30pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Licensing Committee
Tuesday, 30th June 2020 at 7:30pm 









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2 Declarations of Interest
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3 Badger Badger 139-145 Deptford High Street Deptford SE8 3NU
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so good evening everybody and welcome to the type of thing that I'm going to read out the guidance for tonight I'm going to reading from a screens it's quite a lot but it's for to explain how the Committee workers and it's it's not specifically for the councillors but it's for the applicant and the objector said they are aware of what's going on this evening so so welcome my name is Councillor ecosystem or skiing I'm the Chair of the Licensing Committee so as the guidance is as follows so please could you all switch our microphones to mute and to ensure that we are not disturbed by background noise in turn mobile phones to silent he's do not open microphone less I called you to speak open microphones may cause feedback before the business starts I would like to make clear the procedure for this evening this is a poor more virtual public meeting the purpose of which is to make a decision on the application having considered all the evidence presented before us including written reports verbal representation and questions asked peace could ask people not to talk to one another and treat each other with courtesy and respect at all times as Chair invited to speak any person speaking must be permitted to finish what they are saying that interruption if I request that an individual stops speaking they should do so immediately interruptions may result in you being disconnected from this meeting
at Licensing Committee members of the public have been known to speak with candour and passion but please remember this that this is a public meeting it has been screened live by the Council's website and recorded for future reference please do not disclose publicly something that should not be said or could be regretted later the applicant will be invited to speak and members will then be invited to ask them questions any objectors may then speak and speaking and again members will be asked work I will be able to ask questions
I will allow five minutes for every speech but please ensure that there is no repetition if a member of the Committee wishes to ask a question could ask them to indicate this on the chat panel members of the public are reminded that the chap panel is not for public use any messages left on the chap Panel by members of the public will be disregarded by Committee members members of the public who are disconnected from the meeting due to technical difficulties difficulties should use the link or dialling instructions there were sent initially to return to the meeting is a member of the Committee loses internet connection or power can they please inform the Clerk immediately so that they can adjourn the meeting until the connection has been restored
when Members have heard all the evidence the meeting will close and deliberation we made elsewhere the decision to be sent that decision will be sent to all parties via e-mail within five working days of this meeting
so tonight I believe had received a report received apologies for Councillor and more of the been any others and no nearer number it's now OK OK so I'm his country breach out the names of the officers present present at this meeting and could you confirm when I call your name that you're here so pictured a man whose our lawyer or for links are Hooper from the kind enforcement regulation service should the manager he Chair thank you very much so that set so we could we just do the minutes of the meeting held the last

1 Minutes

the meeting we had on the 18th of June can we agree those myths of centre was via e-mail can we agree those that can very much she could I ask that we and introduced the members earned him if I Burgess and his name Serco I go to that of to the offeror Duty interest and not get them to do that that's OKC clarifying Q a Q_

2 Declarations of Interest

and M any Members have any declarations of interest in this item Budget I know that are so would each Council like to introduce themselves to the members of the public I'm sorry with you Kim
I am Councillor Powell Jr
Councillor Edie Campbell
Councillor wise Councillor Susan mice coral
if we are Microsoft Coral
Councillor Carol Howard and Colin Councillor coming earlier it are here and said Grealy interplay I'm Councillor C Hood Yanko Councillor for Bellingham OK thank you very much so mikes are off now that be great thank you so I'm now just going to introduce get Lisa who put it to talk to us lay out the application for Badger Badger 1 3 9 2 1 4 5 Depret that High Street over to Lisa

3 Badger Badger 139-145 Deptford High Street Deptford SE8 3NU

I welcome thank you Chair this application so this hearing is in relation to representations to the new premises licence application for Badger Badger at 139 245 Deptford High Street S C 8 am submitted by novel Pubs Ltd the following activities were applied for by the applicant live music recorded music between the hours of 23 100 and midnight Sunday to Wednesday and 23 hundred and one I am on Thursday to Saturday
late night refreshment between the hours of 23 100 and midnight Sunday to Wednesday and 20 300 and 1 am Thursday to Saturday Sunday to Wednesday that was and touch the hundred to One First each Saturday and the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises between the hours of 9 am and harpist 11 pm Sunday to Wednesday and 9 am and how past midnight first Saturday or so seasonal variation for the extension of hours on New Year's Eve the application has been advertised in accordance with Regulation 25 and the last date for receiving representations was the 28th of April 20 20 representations were received from for interested persons living within the local area on the grounds of public nuisance representations received from interested parties have been examined by officers and are considered not to be vexatious or frivolous these representations were all received within the specified time conditions were agreed between the applicant like police Licensing Officer and the craftsmen regulation service
promote the licensing objectives and as a result no objections were received from responsible authorities after having regard to the vote representations here this evening members must take such steps as they consider appropriate to promote the prevention of public nuisance and the other licensing objectives the steps available to the licensing authority are at 1 to grant the licence as applied for to grant the licence subject to conditions modified to such an extent as the authority considers appropriate for the promotion of licensing objectives 3 exclude from the scope of the licence any of the losses or activities to which the application relates for refuse to specify a person in the licence as the designated premises supervisor or 5 refuse to grant the application
the Code thank you thank you very much looser I his need to adjourn this meeting just like for 10 seconds cause an alarm going off in an I just need to quickly Duchenne that off so I'm sort of those because I'm going to leave the video so I'm just gonna GeV attend sessions I'll be back
I'm so sorry about that I know it's a bit unprofessional but I'm I apologise I'm now at the meeting is now restarted thank you very much everybody so can I invite Paddy were whose at his representative to to speak you put your video on patio and your volume as well
I think
strengthening welcome good evening
terms of the committee thank you very much for creating the opportunity for us to do this virtually it's very helpful
I I prior to the meeting our sentence three additional documents which is the brief applicants statement the noise impact survey which has been carried out by a professional at noise consultant and the additional conditions that were agreed with the police so he to it consideration to those documents when you retire to consider this application James Ross and Callum McKinnon who are novel Pub company their background is set out in the brief statement and also in relation to this premises what they wish to do so it's very novel novel Pub company Arthur space from the dedicated to at board gaming shop and space to play thought games in during the day time that be very popular in the area it will feature local arts and crafts and greater space and opportunity for Merkel groups and clubs to meet and you can see from their experience they've worked in some are pretty impressive some gastropub environments foods going to play a key important part in these premises as you will know it's a redundant building it's been and vacant since about February last year and I think the worsen difficulties
with with some illegal occupants have been and is there a significant amount of investment in these premises and job creation which are set out in that brief statement these guys of a fabulous track record or do think independent ownership is a key feature here this isn't a big company but his opening and of the unit this is there pride and joy in their here to answer the questions that you may have them big commit endless and their approaches being inclusive right from the beginning so they've agreed the additional conditions with the police which are on the schedule the key important conditions there I think not just on crime and disorder the key for your hearing tonight and public you since then a great to cap the number of people who are allowed outside the premises how they will manage smokers are outside the premises how they will make sure that they have a noise limiter set which will be in conjunction to the noise report at the consultant report which I would ask you to in particular bear at consideration to the conclusion a paragraph 8 onwards in their report where the consultants very open with a noise limiter Satur 80 dB day there will be at no issues created for noise escape from the premises at to those that have raised concerns the or for residents than of raised representations to the application to the key really I think on that point as there's no Environmental Health representation and the police no representation on the basis of the Green those additional conditions so an EEA concede an operator who is working with the responsible authorities to the were this application of his your experts in giving advice on crime and disorder and public nuisance I've tried to engage with the residents we put this application on hold and I'm grateful for your Licensing officers for organising that until we'd got the noise consultant
prepared that's been disclosed and shown to the Deptford societies of that they are fully aware of what's trying to be achieved here and had been engaged in that process and that wouldn't stop obviously the application is granted they wanted to be a very strong members of the local community and will work to make sure that there is an immediate point of access to mobile telephone and e-mail between themselves in any the residents who still have some concerns at the moment
in the circumstances we would say at modest hours that have been applied for a during the week slightly longer on a weekend and again local engagement will take place throughout the whole of that so are operational style and the way the premises will trade it certain at the as you heard in relation to the name I suspect is that have been applied for
it's just the hours outside the deregulation but certainly they are the guys can can deal with any questions James and can and do any questions of the the kind of music is going to be on offer in the premises but it's very much as you can see from the way they've spoken to the noise consultants a musical for which isn't going to dampen the appeals enjoyment in the premises so became part of this assertion engagement and are having the opportunity at to relax and they're Dummett noise that's going to be causing a nuisance to people obviously felt that the very thing that's changed since Sir the application was launched as the Covid situation for covert risk assessments will be are put in place to make sure that the premises comply with whatever the regulations are by the time the premises of fitted out and are capable of earning should the premises licence be granted today so very much a community hub that they want to create it's a redundant building it's an important building he's got a great frontage should be left to a unfortunately get not particularly nice and I'm told that level only done some some nips works to the frontage of the building in conjunction of what the Deptford Society recommended so again very keel engagement with those people who feel that the GOP had potential but for for that are being disadvantage through these premises opening that my fighter here for the long haul 20 year lease and they want to assure you that they will promote the licensing objectives and work with the local residents and to make sure that they become accepted as a as a key part of the local community a chance of the documents I think speak for everything that we want to put forward and both of the James and Callum a king to answer any of the questions that you and your car
OK thank you very much Mr. work so
have any questions Charles scope and Mr. Wallis that or of the applicant thorough in the background at the moment
nobody can question I want to ask that she is is exactly where you are in terms of the station you opposite the station Mr. Paddy have gone
turn around the record might be half-decent licensing lawyer ambush attack and we're all learning or learning there am I think and I'll be corrected by my client about if I'm wrong but I think I'm right it if you looking at the station the premises just slightly further along the right hand side but on nothing thought of the road yes OK yes
prefer to correct the defect numbers
second car we want to ask the question you need some type of a queue in the quitting checkbox coral
I can't hear you call your got Mikey's of
no one can EU coriander sorry sorry I gave a PI put a question mark but I forgot to earn put along yet
Mr. whether it's we're at the point when
and clubs and premises has an uncle began a lot of Fifa Hoban there's a lot of things that can bring a white cord got something else on in the background no nothing nothing at all
that better as a bit better here I don't know where that came from sorry we nearly at the point where restaurants and pubs and so on are going to be opening and we still in the situation of a pandemic and would like to know a little bit about what the intentions are to meet the place covert safe if they licence is agreed
the Council must have been a very good point we still a considerable distance of the premises ready to open said that there's a lot of physical work that needs to be undertaken on a fit out works so at the premises aren't going to be open at any time soon and perhaps I could bring him either germs or Callum to view a time estimate of where they're up to in because also builders of not been working every the result of the for over to James you'd like to just give an estimate when you if you'll ever licences agreed what's hot when you actually be opening what personal however
as a result we will ensure open late September so officers can get on the change happening in terms of covert panning hopefully if everything goes to an but what we do as a panic the worse right now so yet for instance you open to the raft of measures we do our remote ordering and table service for the Campbell one-way systems were looking at sanitised that's going to be having on the boss in the toilets I we're looking at screening and protection between the tables an essential and Peaky were having to do something fun with EP on their bulkier I'm so we're going to a full raft of measures but this is an ongoing situation so ultimately we're going to have to see what the government says and yet the most important thing to us that customers are going to walk in and they're going to be looking for space for the feel safe and which they feel it has actually addressed these matters so it's really good for our business and good for the community if we're thinking about customer safety OK thank you very much for that levels I'm now going to turn nobody has had a question so I'm going to now get them I think ask one of the objectors to speak and I believe that Helena Wrathall was the first ejected wanted to speak is that correct
yes that's correct hello Hellman so I thought you got five minutes max to speak and I could have on a stopwatch and bloody rude as I need this I thought of after meeting so if you'd like to outline your objection please thank you thank you Chair and thank you committee for the opportunity to speak and my Alam's Helen Russell Amir local resident and I'm also one of the co-chairs of the Deptford society we are the local amenity group for the depth of High Street and the Creekside conservation areas we've been responsible for a number of initiatives in Deptford such as getting the anchor back onto the High Street and we both are worth Conservation officers on the the recent to High Street Conservation appraisal review and I've been involved in the depth of society since it was founded which was about five years ago and I was elected tomorrow last year I think it's important to point out that the deputies' does involve residents but it's also shopkeepers we have bar owners we have restaurant owners a gallery owner and so on so it's not just residence
all of us lived we shop we socialise in Deptford and many this work here as well I'm particularly passionate about the importance of the high street's and it's got historical heritage value as well as very tightly knit an active community
solid behind uplifted Dafydd more than 15 years I am my home is just behind the High Street and it faces onto the rear of the premises we do welcome the expansion of the evening time economy in Deptford and we welcome the choice and diversity of drinking and eating options that that brings but also very mindful of the increase that we get in noise nuisance and that some when the bars close and obviously when the close late that happens late at night and people dispersal on the High Street which has a very long High Street it's got many side streets and people are generally going to bus stops and so on so they're moving away from the that that the and centre we get an increase in traffic because people visiting more often in cars we've also got a free for all parking situation on the High Street which is very difficult to manage at the moment as lots of people are driving these impacts are all being felt at the moment we do
feel that any rise in the number of late night the venue use must be balanced against living conditions for those people who've made their homes in Deptford many of them have been settled here and lived here for decades and we are concerned that this erosion of living conditions it could drive these lessons away and this threat was acknowledged at the by the Licensing Committee in its decision on the previous year the most recent application for another premises in Deptford I'm sorry you can't bring over you can't bring it another application into this and one that disregarded and and that a and and to my mind to my recollection that was not an acknowledged by this Committee and I believe it was in the it was in the decision notice there was a point in the decision notice that I put it on the fallacy that you petrol could you just confirm legally that we stand with this knowledge ideas that weren't aware that we went to add to his natural way but it is a question of relevance and it is irrelevant thank you
secondly come into this particular application we do acknowledge the efforts that the Africans gone to in order to address the concerns have been raised so far quite a few of the concerns we already raised have been addressed we'd like to be assured that the improvements in the that are noted in the noise report will actually be conditioned to be implemented such as the acoustic lobby the noise limiter and so on could because we think those will make quite a difference but we still got to two fundamental concerns which and we believe undermine the licensing objective of the prevention of public nuisance and they'll be covered in detail by the other speakers the opening hours that proposed we think will have a detrimental impact on sleeping hours for those people who live on deputise streets and we don't agree that their modest as as the presenters suggested we think come midnight on 0weeknight
tickler as Les and 1 am on a Thursday and Friday or Saturday and the second is the problem of these smokers outside the front or 10 people up to 10 people outside on the pavement throughout the night until one I am we think the impact on the neighbours is going to be severe so before that my my the other speakers go into that in more detail just wanted to show a short clip of it short video of a minute okay 30 seconds of exposure in the Julia so Kevin as owing to you show that you
and it's just shows the night-time environments the difference between and Deptford which is classified as the same in the same Licensing hub as New Cross Road so just to give you an idea if you're not familiar with the night-time environment deputise Street this is deputise Street
is anything happening on that video
do you have to make it pay ourselves or
exposed to press play services just got to post-play arches Pressplay are they go
the them just to point out that the premises of is just to the right of where this has taken
this is a typical evening on Deptford High Street
4 CAC thank you very much sorry put it in a
OK thank you for doing that Kevin
I'll team managed to them and I'm very impressed with earn Artek team that managed to get a video shown to us virtually 5 her father of our Microsoft Teams meeting so well done for for doing that so thank you very much Ms. Russell now going to hand over to another to which is the next objector I've got Harry Richardson and Peter Collins
notes that the figures mean Harry Richardson OK Harry would you like to and put your they go welcome hello everyone take got five minutes I'm going to start now OK thank you hello monetary Richardson after growing up in nearby Charlton I've lived with my wife at north end of Deptford High Street for over 20 years raising out her daughter's here but for is often refer to as a special place whether that relates to its market is open heart hearted sense of community its rich architectural landscape or the high proportion of independent businesses that flourish here get for possesses an array of rare and positive characteristics that contradicted situation as being within one of the poorest areas of the UK we believe this owes a great deal to the unusual fact that Deptford High Street is actually a home as well as a High Street
the beneficial and reciprocating relationship that exists in close proximity between its residential resident and retail populations compliments and enriches in such a way that we believe forms the crucial bedrock of Deptford community at large Helena's video demonstrates a key factor that supports this but definite High Street provides a perfectly reasonable environment for a peaceful night's sleep that enabling the an estimated 2 thousand plus residents who live along and around its length the opportunity for a good rest cast your eyes above the ground level you'll find what is effectively a residential road sitting atop a High Street
in recent years this residential element has been strengthened by significant investment in high quality accommodation in and around the High Street including Deptford Market yard samples House and other new developments we believe is complementary dynamic between retail and residential life is rare and should be protected now I'd like to ask the Committee to consider when people typically like to go to bed I'd imagine that it's unlikely to be 1 2 or 3 am I ask this because the response to the recent increase in licence applications over recent years has now resulted in a clutch of new businesses closing times at these hours
if approved premises surrounded by residential homes adjacent opposite and within the same building how on earth is this happened
the complaints and enforcement procedures must of course it here to the correct legal process but these can be burdensome and frustratingly ineffective for residents I speak with direct experience aside from this it's important to understand that within Beckford's resident population or people who might well not be aware of their rights let alone a processes to complain in the first place does this mean that they should therefore suffer a poor night's sleep and so without complaints that businesses remain open and Deptford High Street a home as well as a high street suffers a step by step erosion of its fundamental living conditions this reality was confirmed by this Committee only last week in its decision letter for the jobs application and I quote The Committee noted the wider concerns and Patra related causes that we mentioned
sorry cut trial says I yeah I was trying to meet
we're talking relevance here to the actual premises if you could limit yourself please all it was just how much I'm not referring to the application and referred to what the Committee has said I would I would like you to just move on if you want the context that we ask you to consider his application let me be clear we fully appreciate the applicant's attempts to mitigate for the noise that may be created within its premises but this only deals with half of the story inevitable noise or come from patrons congregating on the street outside will I assure you from experience wake people up for this reason we strongly object to the applicant's request for when I imposing the gods of the licensing objective of prevention of public nuisance both on behalf of residents and to protect the life of the High Street in general for the reason stated above
we can't believe you want to see a degradation of housing in the centre of that food for the same reason we strongly objected application for all night licence on New Year's Eve and additional couple of hours would suitably reflect the celebration that use Eve demands but all night is unnecessary and unreasonable and would again surely undermined prevention of public nuisance
for appropriate closing closing hours we'd like to refer to Lewisham's draft Licensing Policy Statement for 20 20 25 when classifying the various districts of the Borough for setting preferred operating hours
Thetford High Street is identified as a District hub the same category as New Cross which he just saw in Helen's video getting rid night for week nights and when I am for week nights as the preferred latest closing time whereas places such as Brooklyn Hither Green a catfight as local hub giving 11 pm for weeknights and midnight for weekend nights we find this mystifying Bedford High Street has a high density of homes and legible road traffic compared to all of his playing the country New Cross surprising perhaps to visitors who see the hustle and bustle of market days but as Helenus video slope so clearly demonstrates and detailed in the noise impact survey provided by the applicant Deptford has low levels of ambient noise at night if Midnight is suitable for busier broccoli in Hither Green why 0 why is it not suitable for Deptford
thank you very much thank you for that and now we have and Peter Collins
have you got a videogame you please thank you
Peter Collins OTR so you've got so you've got
you got five minutes starting now yeah thank you I'm good evening I'm Peter Collins and I'm speaking on behalf of the deficit IT and covering the issue of noise nuisance and from the premises and its potential to undermine the licensing objective
of prevention of public nuisance
as part of the Deptford society my partner and I are deeply involved with maintaining Dertfords essential uniqueness while supporting the growth and development of its local economy
in our work as co-directors of the annual debt for prize we have planned joined evening events with many local business owners including bars and cafes while seeking to maintain harmony between the interests of our organisation the business owners and the wishes of local residents we've been Deptford residence for 10 years and live in one of the properties directly opposite the premises we acknowledged that the applicant has proactively taken steps to address some of the issues that already good raised and we take that as a positive indication
as has already been pointed out the background noise on that food High Street is unusually low for what would be considered an urban sites the video showed actually with a neutered at the moment that the one car and bicycle noise came past there's very little through traffic that uses the High Street out of peak commuting and shopping hours train frequency is relatively low compared to other local lines and the street is not on a bus route consequently the trend of converting former shops into bars is increasing the density of licensed premises in the vicinity and when late hours such as these are approved the quality of life for existing residents is eroded we note that a number of additional conditions have been agreed but we do not believe that these are fully addressed the underlying issues and we also hold that these issues are surmountable without unrealistic and prohibitively expensive structural changes we have considered the potential for public nuisance relating to a number of the proposed conditions firstly limiting the number of people outside to 10 if no this figure has been reduced from 15 it's still too many both in terms of the capacity of the pavement which is less than 2 metres wide and the noise that 10 people will generate as she thought from the short films the ambient noise on the high street and late-evening is extremely low we already experience noise from groups of people walking past in the evening but this is generally a temporary inconvenience as they move on in a short time the prospects of the constant presence of up to 10 people shouting and laughing outside the president that premises every night directly opposite our home represents an acceptable level of disturbance to the quality of life that when our neighbours experience how will staff at the venue prevent smokers from using the adjacent railway bridge as the gathering smoking place particularly in wet weather the bridge itself naturally Con Air contains an amplified sound and we would unsurpassed even greater public Neeson's in this case if the outside space already is at capacity what will prevent patrons from congregating elsewhere
and also when no door staff are Mgt how will the regular staff control numbers of smokers outside and their behaviour while also serving at the Bar we question whether this is enforceable
secondly the condition no customers will be allowed to take drinks outside into the front of the premises after 10 pm whereas the committed to clarify whether this condition is required surely customers will not be allowed to drink outside the front of the premises during the preceding hours we would consider this to be wholly inappropriate for a narrow pavement and suggest any use of the space be restricted to smoking only and finally regarding the condition for queuing outside the premises we question how ACU will be managed in the particular circumstances of these premises the pavement outside is barely wide enough for smokers and acute will exacerbate the public nuisance pushing the queue back under the railway bridge will again amplifier and contain any noise to the first and second floor accommodation levels
in conclusion we hope it is clear what impact the establishment of a social venue with no private outdoor space and an entrance on a narrow part of the high streets will have on the living conditions of us and our neighbours were respectfully ask the committee to give due regard to the issues we outlined namely the opening hours and the smoking arrangements when making their decision it's not considered view that the proposed application even with the current conditions followed represents a serious threat to the prevention of public nuisance and the quality of life for local residents thank her match thank you very much as to Collins Bell to a Members have any questions for any of the objectors
luck and
Mr. Colin suggests asked a question about the I'm A the timing of people taking drinks outside what can we get that carry fires on all current somebody one of the ACC Garry can clarify that and yet I can I can cover that and so I'm just reading the conditions he are and I think
that's what he might be minded to relook at that these two conditions here pitches permitted temporary leave and then return to the premises including the smoking area to smoke shall not be fitted to take drinks containers with them the following condition says no customers shall be permitted to leave the premises of any glass containers and
it's kind of word that essentially there shouldn't be drinking out the front
anyway so I think that the Committee might want to look at those conditions there I think they might contradict each other a little bit one other point I just wanted to make as well as a riff regard to the noise acoustic report I think it's only fair to just be clear that there is a condition that was agreed about having an acoustic engineer could dot The report which is one of the conditions and obviously the applicant has now done that but there isn't a condition about actually undertaking the works that were recommended as part of the report so if there is anything in that report that Members are making their decision based on they may wish to include that as a condition of the licence as well am if they're minded to grant it to ensure that it's actually you a condition of the licence the that that does take place
OK thank you very much for that Lisa so I'm as there are no questions and a members feel they haven't enough information is that correct yes this now is going I'm now going to accompany for actually doing this I'm going to end this Licensing Committee we're going to adjourn to another meeting and the so further to the objectors and the applicant you'll be notified as I said earlier via e-mail of our decision that we're going to make later on this evening OK so thank you very much everybody and I'll see you in the next meeting those who are coming so thanks very much by telephone to hang up everyone
no end