Children and Young People Select Committee - Monday, 21st September 2020 at 7:00pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Children and Young People Select Committee
Monday, 21st September 2020 at 7:00pm 









Start of webcast
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1 Confirmation of Chair and Vice Chair
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2 Minutes of the meeting held on 10 March 2020
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3 Declarations of interest
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4 Responses to Referrals from this Committee to Mayor and Cabinet
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5 Select Committee work programme
6 Financial stabilisation - budget update and medium term plan
7 Children's Social Care Post Ofsted Report
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8 Early Help presentation
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  1. Webcast Finished

good evening everybody and welcome to this meeting of the children and Young people Select Committee I'm Emma I Kumi that scrutiny manager I'd like to start by inviting the Committee to confirm the decision made at the Council AGM to confirm the appointment of Luke Soroba as Chair and Caroline Kalou as Vice Chair for the municipal year 20 20 20 21

1 Confirmation of Chair and Vice Chair

please could you raise your hand in front of the screen if you agree if you do not agree as well as keeping your hand down could you flag your disagreement in the trap pain no thank you
I'm raising my hand but you can't see him as a man who difficulties our cameras are Mrs. Councillor Colin Elliot he I can see that there's been no objections in the chat paid in which case over to you Chair
thank you ma and the I thank you all members of the Committee of before taking part and elected myself and Caroline as Chair and Vice Chair and also welcome to members of the public who may be a watching and listening to the meeting as it and progresses through the evening this is our first formal meeting of the children Young people select committee
since March before the COVID-19 and Demick took hold so it is and it is some sort of slightly unusual we are using exclusively remote technology for the first time and we have also introduced across the Council of some changes in the way we earn operate out and scrutiny committees so we have a slightly smaller with the and I would like to thank those members who took part last year who have now moved on I'd like to thank Councillors Coral Howard poor Muslim and jumped ship for their contributions and also Gael Exxon who has retired as one of our co-opted members on the unheard like to welcome our new secondary schools parent governor RET
Clive Kiszely and also Councillor Lionel Openshaw as well as I knew Executive Director children Young people and Akiko shall they all attending their first
select committee
before I go on or just reminded that if you're not are I'm speaking please a timer to at New microphones
if you wish to speak please use the chat box and then I'm you yourselves and I will hear your and contribution
the meeting is expected to last two hours or her but if we need to agree an extension we do have that option typically scrutiny committees will now be and scrutinise in tune substandard items unless there are exceptional circumstances and tonight because of the
increased spending that was not anticipated a few months ago due to the pandemic we have I third sort of emergency item will be looking for financial and stabilisation plan on top of the two items the to fend items that Sir I've agreed with Executive Directors bring tonight and those of the Children's social Care improvement plan and the early Help Review
consequently I'd like to spend less time than we might normally on the minutes in the past with some times or use the minutes as a sort of matters arising of opportunity if I do not have that opportunity tonight so I have checked them out as has an Emma and when we do get to agree the minutes I just want us to focus on their accuracy we've done our best to make the accurate representation of what we remember by Federation was to propose any revisions are will try and get through that and as briskly as possible when it comes to the and substandard items excuse me we are a large committee despite the on the shrinking of it the largest of Select Committee on the Council so as a result what I like to do is ask Members on the first round of questions of comments to limit themselves to one each and then went once there what's their exhausted if this time we will have a further opportunities for Members and contribute so what necessary be your only opportunity but that will depend on how we them on how we use the time and as always then if the point 1 wanted to make has been covered by the contribution of a previous Member and let's try and vital adjudication so we can keep all the contributions as sort of fresh insights new questions and so on to use the time as efficiently as possible so that brings me on to an the apologies I term I am not aware I haven't received any apologies of members who cannot attend but if anyone is not here who has let in on us now was to pass on the apologies
I think we are all here

2 Minutes of the meeting held on 10 March 2020

in which case we'll move on to the minutes The minutes we've all had a copy in advance
as I said every night on our best to try and check them do we have anyone who wishes to propose any revisions are there any inaccuracies was there something major that we missed out
I don't see anything in the chat in which case I'm going to propose that we accept the minutes as they are are there any objections

3 Declarations of interest

that the minutes are agreed declarations of interest are pleased that the notes have any pecuniary or non-pecuniary declarations wish to declare and the item to which the at which makes them relevant as well
anybody want to declare an interest
Councillor Jack pursuit
please go ahead yet it may come up when we discuss that at the budget and I turn I'm a trustee the short breaks provider in Lewisham the Ravensbourne project I'm also a non A-League governor trust governor or the Brent no Watergate co-operative Trust and the fact that I'm not a an LA governor things I think I should declare it in case that come as up and the budget matters
thank you Jack we will note that
when it comes to the work programme is possible the we will be discussing children unless mental health in which case I should mention I Amlin Council's appointee so the Council of Governors at the southern immortally NHS Foundation Trust
if there were no other declarations will move on to Item 4

4 Responses to Referrals from this Committee to Mayor and Cabinet

item 4 is
where we hear the Mayor and Cabinet's response to referrals that the committee may have made none are due at the moment so we may wish to make referral today but there are no outstanding referrals and therefore no responses that were waiting for so I will just an move us on from Iten for to item 5

5 Select Committee work programme

and this is the Select Committee work programme
we are going to to outline the a priority issues that we'd like the Committee to scrutinise
between now and the end of the
the municipal calendar so we have four meetings between now and the annual general meeting in the spring I'd made a list myself off
the topics that we have historically wanted to draw attention to and use the Committee to scrutinise which I'm going to share with you we also have some already in the calendar that the earlier incarnation of the Committee recommended were taken we're not bound by the recommendations of the of this committee as it was proposed at before the Annual General Meeting we can change that Emma would you like to say something soon members about the work programme
thank you Chair yes then there pervades a suggested work programme for the year and includes details of how to prioritise items for the work programme there's a an Excel spreadsheet at Appendix E which has been populated based on the suggestions from officers items of continuing scrutiny suggestions from members
of put some suggestions under each meeting for a kind of indicative time for Kunst considering them and the can Committees invited to consider and agree the work programme noting that at the moment there's nothing scheduled infer January so the Committee will need to decide what you want to do with the January meeting whether you want to but things in for that or whether you want to retain some capacity for issues that may arise in the coming months
thank you do you will have a copy of that Schedule in front of you
next months what would they be the children's social care improvement plan and the early Help Review and the I'm we had financial stabilisation
plan is well next month we have provisionally the initiative for raising attainment in schools for children of black Caribbean heritage
we will also at that stage have received the details proposals for cuts in the CYP budget
we have an opening there for third item if we require 1 4 November
in January
we have the corporate parenting and children looked after Annual report as a proposal and from officers and I would like to use January and to catch up on the on the air of tunes mental health I have
I have a proposal for some from Sir Norman Lamb whose new chair of governors at slammed his happy to come and speak to the Committee and we have over the last year and a half or so looked at the waiting time solution children the children and adolescent mental health services we've also considered other issues around her mental health such as disproportionality in on-loan on the grounds of race in terms of getting access to treatment so on so I thought that would be a good opportunity to look at those issues and January would be
the slot that's available
they is already a slot used up for a follow up to our review of children and families in temporary accommodation we will do an in-depth review we always programme at the follow up to the check on how the recommendations have or have not been implement and so on
scheduled for March
we will return to
the early Help service or the livery of the new configuration of early help services in March as well
but yet we still have an opportunity to add or remove items Octavia obesity
thank you very much Chair yeah I think what we've got in the plan and excited I wanted to make a couple of suggestion and say where we have got an escape that's right page so well we've got
BAME school attainment for the November item do you think it would be possible to add that if it's not included already the issue around the representativeness of our governors in Lewisham if we could add that to ensure that we look at it at the same time it might fit in quite well
so that was one suggestion rather than having a separate item we could ask to incorporate it there because it's all cut a part of the same thing the other point so intimate with the quickly so in terms of the early Help Review
so we've got it we've got it coming back in March I was just wondering if depending on how our discussion guys later we might feel that we need to have further discussions on it sitting or not because as some quite meaty items in their round was going to happen with I youth provision of his can become more targeted howl of that's going and also our family centres and changes of and that there it would be really good to explore further later on but so I was just thinking if you know if for example there are going to be contractual changes or changes to the way those services are run we may feel that we need a discussion before March if you see what I mean I don't know if you want to come back to that end and and the final item depending on what other suggestions people have got was around homes Glencore's in our list on page 23 of thing was that we've talked about before we've said unregulated education settings which is I know a bit different but Angelo Scattergood said recently in an update to us at this being quite a big increase in people saying that our home-schooling their children
and I think it would be really good to understand more about the kind of numbers were talking about and what sort of support and checks and so on were given to those families to their my thoughts to put into the next thank you
thank you take our pick them on the first point we can certainly ask for the yet representation and governing bodies to be part of the report we get on them
On 5 educational attainment that's the
the sorts of the title being used for that that item we can ask for that to be included I think there'll be a problem that I think that's so I think that's good I think it's definitely part of the picture that we would want to see in the bigger picture and I in terms of the early Help yes I think if things start moving more quickly and big decisions around commissioning are going to be made before March then we would wish this uncommitted to have an opportunity to scrutinise them so I would suggest rather than schedule of particular meeting to do that we heap aware and for the awake to what the developments are so that we can then asked to come to the relevant you know the relevant term and committee
the issue of elective home education
I was by coincidence one of the two issues I'd scribbled down on yet covered in the calendar I write also at that one down and also down on
special children with special educational needs and disabilities without path her an item on that but I can see a in the calendar yet Hillary fear
thanks yeah you've ever might so as if they ensure alumnus SEN day was actually when the coffers I was going to make her as well and I like to echo Octavio sorts regarding elective education I have worked in a number of are Lodha barrows and being on the receiving end of situations where parents are electively home educated and quite frankly we're not able to do so and I was not impressing will borrow that I worked in where frankly it was a tall where there were issues at home in attendance and everything in it became or or why do you home in no elect educated home and quite frankly the passwords he are weren't able to educate the on Key stage 2
OK so as a result of that obviously you then end up with a situation of for young people being educated by allegedly by their parents are the parents cannot afford a tutor than you end up with of not being able to to be educated in any way shape or form connected the national curriculum I then of course we we hid hit those issues head on come secondary or later on in my case in FE so I'd really think we need to know what the criteria Wattstax what checks are made to make sure that if somebody does say they want to electively home educate it is actually checked they can do so or if they're saying that because I know there's you know that the they they're able to do so because at the end of the day come just store up problems with it for the future
thank you Hillary
Councillor Jack pursue I'm sorry I missed I missed you in the queue so apologies are overtly Jack it that's fine owing I to notice the absence as the one-day and it might come from the Ofsted action but it keeps coming up this thing about transition from various forms of children's services to adult services notably Children's social Care to Adult social Care or
children in care moving into adulthood and we don't seem to look at that we've are we saying that we get a look at it more closely but we don't seem to ever really get a chance to look at that and and that something that that I think we need to keep an eye on
OK thank Jacques so from the discussion so far it looks at the to the new items that don't fit into the the ones are you know already on the calendar
homage accommodation and and SEN day and I think Jack backwards that that would give us a good focus if its transition from
young people's care to adult care rather than getting getting a general sort of and sketch of the whole service perhaps we should ask for a report that focuses on that and then we can and we can really sort of you know Dyfi pinned to it and
elective Home Education in under these new circumstances where just so much more of activity is taking place in the home at many of many view are at this moment in the home I think it would be really would be really timely as well I would support that
if there are no other sort of comments shall I join the leave it with me to look at the actual spreadsheet with Emma and and find spaces for those two items
I will take that as agreement
I would you
thank you Chair it it wasn't but it was really about the terms of reference for the Select Committee I just wanted to get some clarity on the Youth offending Service because I'm aware youth offending services transferred over to the children Young People's Directorate is that correct
yes it is a care OK but it won't be scrutinised through this committee to be scrutinised through Safer and stronger that route now yes not sorriest I sat three years that committee and and it did come to that Committee regularly hit a care you here
yes Chair so long to lose the capital like in Surrey the grim was although the services moved across to the children and people services the lead member and scrutiny role remains unchanged so they'll Tuttle be can have scrutinised by the the other Committee that's my understanding or care it can I follow on share given the importance of
the Youth offending Service and its work with young people there needs to be I think a
an improved relationship between the two committees so that well we're hearing are working from the same premise and were scrutinising on the same premise that is my comment because otherwise it becomes a bit separate and it did over the it did become separate over the Youth offending Services inspection so when we had that no two to three years ago so I just wanted to ensure that there is some mechanism that is done it dovetails otherwise we're going to be again separate and it is all about our young people that's just my comment Chair thank you I'm no longer other it's really important common by major thoughts are the how in the same way that in the past we have sat in on unhealthy Community Select Committee and housing of Select Committee where there have been topics that crossed over I could a approach counsellor
it's Juliette Campbell who chairs that scrutiny committee and I could ask her to if she wouldn't mind inviting us collectively to to to join him when there item comes up before her committee there is a already as individuals or we can sit on other select committees but to have a sort of a sort of formal invite shall I slightly that yet I do think it needs to be a formal relationship now 8 agreement because otherwise otherwise we won't be able to sort of CityCo work together so yes Chair I think it would be a good idea thank you
I'll catch so your older I'll go ahead and do that
any more on the work programme or do we think it's in it's it's in a sort of a finished enough shape that we can get approval from business Panel nets with it we can obviously still tweak it I am
Colin are you wishing to speak I ever hand re out of area
according to suit the reason I was as sure as I'm using the the meeting chat rather than the hand raise the researchers from times the hand stay up from earlier and it can be looked bit and confusing but took go ahead Colin
pointed out earlier we might want to do something on ya the impact of the algorithm what effect it had on the evidence again and chosen place as the universities and the predicted teeth in the Tea to predict a greater introduced if there were some of our children who are negatively impacted on that process if we could just maybe have a report on that
I think that's very good idea
a it sounds to me
My first impression it sounds like some that probably could be covered in the report that that would be good for us all to get a copy of and to read her not necessarily presentations to committee would you be happy with us Rick requesting a report that could be circulated to Members coloured I would be us just a just to get some indication of the impact
are OK out yet our commit to doing that Alan our last scum are Angela if she provide something at an appropriate time rather than setting a time now
thank you
so if that everything cupboard for now the work programme I will and close this item and and move on
thank you everyone out the 4 inches item 6 I'm just going to ask our scrutiny manager to refer it back to item 4 response to referrals
I didn't and I think when I am described a situation that are as there are no responses to committee referrals present and there is one we're awaiting that come in the future which I didn't mention something over to Emma just touching clarify
thank you Chair this committee did make her Farrow and on ICT provision there was a delay in that going to Mayor and Cabinet because of the culvert situation and the dates for that and this dispatched didn't quite add up so that was considered by Mayor and Cabinet after the agenda and papers were square agreed for this committee
and without going into the details of their their referral that there has been a response to Nick can come to the next meeting if that the way you want to
yes yes please so are misspoke to what I said there were none due out what I really meant was that there are there are none so tabled for this visiting yesterday yet the route one due and but we'll have to wait till our annexed Ricky and thank you and for job the shoot during my patient that appreciate that

6 Financial stabilisation - budget update and medium term plan

I will move on to Item sits so I mentioned this in my introduction earlier the financial stabilisation I come is an update on the budget and the Medium Term financial forecast that's been very much informed by the additional spending and the loss of revenue that came about due to the covert pandemic
before I am asked David Austin our and acting Chief financial Officer to introduce the item I just want to share with Members the fact that the actual savings or cuts proposals that affect spending CYP will be presented to this Committee in November
but I would like to use this as an opportunity for the Committee if it wants to to make a recommendation before those of proposals are I know are devised and come to us to scrutinise so that perhaps we can give
a sense of direction or weaken highlight why our concerns or give some guidance in advance so we don't just deal with sort of post decision scrutiny but we have the opportunity to influence how those Uncut's proposals might in fact be an inner peace devised so with that is sort of in the back of our minds are alas David at twitched Chasty at the item itself and David he here yet good evening purgative
plugging a short introduction and then opened up for questions yes please so we have we have all had an opportunity to read the document
and shall be I favoured it but if you just mentioned that the highlights that you want us to focus on the thing that we should be focusing on that would be helpful to David thank you Chair and just for the Clerk I'm no longer in the title you gave me and the director of corporate resources now just just to be clear so the highlights of the report are that as you've noted in your reduction we're facing difficult times we're facing those both in year and going forward and as you said this is really to ensure that all Members and all the scrutiny committees of this report is going to all this critic committees have a chance to consider what the implication that of the wider financial context is ahead of actually getting to any detailed discussions in November not notwithstanding your point about what to discuss potentially as a steer the discussion in November we'll be around draft officer proposals that will be pre-scrutiny they don't go to Mayor and Cabinet until December just just to I'm clear that is pre pre-scrutiny so the report itself that that the financial context which is essentially one of significant uncertainty and as a result of that significant challenge really across forefront we've got the cable pandemic and its impacts and of course there now coming even more Baquet focus we've got some in year overspending where as much as we tried to right-size budget and in particular this committee will be aware where we worked on that over the last couple of years the last few years and actually we have put the budget to the level at which it was agreed spending might need to be we still face significant overspending in some services with demand growing and also that the population growing at with costs rising thirdly we've got significant uncertainty around public sector finances and at this stage we don't have a comprehensive spending review we don't have a Fitch a year let come and financial second or even the framework for it so planning in that respect make things very difficult for for the council and then finally and really cut across all of those we've got the wider economy and how that might affect our communities and our businesses and also people
and their employment going forward where it's already been stated you know we are in recession and respect in that to get worse before it gets better so that's the context and as much as we plan prudently and we know we have a reserves position that might be able to deal with one possibly two of those the fact that we've got all four now is really a challenge and is really emphasising the point I need to make the this financial position does need to be addressed and does need to be addressed now say that the discussions through to the setting the budget next February are going to be challenging in terms of the report it sets out the challenge in year and it turns out the challenge Ferg becoming years in year again is you've mentioned we faced some covert pressures where are spending and a loss of income does exceed the amount to come and the government amount of money the government has committed to support as we're so far and that's you know rising towards 20 million we estimate at the moment and in addition as I said we've got some in year overspending pressures
so while we continue to lobby and report on that and argue why we need more funding until it's confirmed we have to face that reality and with our reserves and we have to try and address it ourselves where we spending beyond budget and the report sets out 5 point 4 million pounds of in-year cuts that management action we'll be able to take to reduce spending further then turning to the future year and the Medium Term financial Plan sets out some assumptions and I have said the word on Sumption's in the context of the uncertainty of described but we do believe that for the next three years on the current understanding we are going to need to identify an in the region of at least 40 million pounds over the next three years with the majority of that next year 24 million pounds for next year so that's a significant challenge on on the decade of austerity and those have been
at this committee meetings or others over the last 10 or 11 years you know this is as this is as big as it's been in any of those years and and the pressure continues so the report then talk to the approach that officers are taking this year we can't as we've been challenged in previous years continue with I'm what's been described a siloed or salami slicing a services we are not going to get this incrementally we need to do something more significant and cross cutting for the Council so what we're trying to do is organise ourselves around some themes and those to address how we might join the work and resolve and challenges together and in particularly that we start with the community need and the priority of services and the outcomes that we need to to achieve and work back to organisationally and operationally how we can afford best us to set ourselves up and live within our budget to do that
so for example for Children's it might be that we currently have services in at an at different buildings to others an adult or libraries or schools and there may be a way of bringing some of that service delivery around you know common assets enablers to reduce costs and broaden our our base simile that my enablers to take up a more whole whole family or whole life approach and where we brings us together in different ways but also going to have to adjust what I just with the times and look at new ways of working with clearly seen a lot more online cans of armed can't actioned and a lot more online engagement with service users not just who co-authored we were going in that direction anyway but it has accelerated matters and there may be opportunities from that kind of change as well so that's the way we're looking at addressing the the future gap 40 million and should finally say also that what we don't address this year becomes a rolling pressure into next year so we have to do something this year and we have to do something for the years coming then finally to the timetable just to repeat what what really you said an introduction questions around the general context and challenge now the detailed proposals from those themed working groups will come forward to you in November for pre-scrutiny before going to Mayor and Cabinet in December hopefully by then we will also had a an ECHR Chancellor's budget in the autumn and a Local government Finance Settlement for next year and then we can move and to build in the budget in January February with any further measures we may still need to take in January to set a balanced budget by Council in February so that that's the report in the context of essayist is to give you that that wider view and happy to take any questions
thank you very much David and yes of course that November will be I'm as you say pre-decision scrutiny this is pre proposal and scrutiny of this coined a new a new bit of jargon to add so thank you for that introduction are good open it to to members are just a very quick and factual question to ask which is didn't do we know anything about the troubled families grant yet any news on that and and then Liz you are first in line to speak after that
so I am not aware of there being any change confirmed as yet were expecting that as part of the supplement later in the year and indeed up with speaking with Pynacker's exacted director so where we're looking to build plans that I believe see it continuing but whether it continues in exactly the same form but we will have to see when announcements follow and I should say an answering any of these questions but conscious of time if any of the officers want to come in with more specific service understanding than I have please please do
thank you David yes over to you Les OK thank you David Ford for updating us to I've got a couple of questions one is the one point 7 in in-year saving which is you know a Adel amount of money to save and I'm interested to know how how their savings were made what were made on is my first question my second question shall got three sorry my second question share is about
CYP has legal requirements to deliver services that we are obliged to do as a Local Authority and therefore we have to we have to deliver on those so there are there's a benchmark really on things that we can cut and things that we can't can't because of our statutory duties and I can understand why Councillor Sauber raised that as a discussion point because we have to be have to consider those benchmarks as well in terms of before we decide on any any cast and my last point was and you mention of causing in one way do say these is to look at different ways of working which has happened across the Council which has been amazing but in our in our Ofsted Post Ofsted report in terms of looking at are improvements one of the key things has been said is the importance of the face to face contact the social workers have you know with young people and their families and obviously through covert we fetch produce that and that's had a little bit of an impact but as building up now and we need to ensure that we continue with that are as a positive way of working and we don't reduce that thank you Chair
shall I come back on those yes pleased I be thank you Les
I I'll talk the in Year numbers but then I might also invite Pinnock if I may to talk to some of the challenges because it going no more service specific around the statutory requirement and ways of working in terms the in year savings as the report outlines we've
he done it through a number of things were holding vacancies where we can to to control things particularly around agency spend we're not for much of the where people were chasing income and ensuring services are poorly reach out with that's applicable now and where we're following that through some of that pause during the covert months when you know we had to be very sensitive around where people's financial returns work and that sensitive he continues but equally the Council's need to collect the income is due returns out and we're following up on now
more relevant to the White Papers we're we're looking again very carefully through all of our contractual commitments and clearly we've got a lot of spend not just on staff which is impacted by the vacancy point but current contracted placement typecast as well and where we can negotiate for ensure that we're getting exactly what we paid for at the right time and not more that that that's where we're looking and also to come to some extent we're recognising where we can capture cost where activity was lower than was expected in those early months of the year and ensuring that we are we capture that now so that we don't use our reserves now and we have more financial capacity and muscle later not least the with the news this week that were likely to be going into a second peak I hear you on the statutory point around the children's needs we have many statutory responsibilities in there and I have in my role one about the budget that equally has to be balanced so the these these are professional challenges and that's why there will be officer proposals and we will have to work through you know as colleagues first and it's difficult for us I can assure you as as your soul
you took to find the limits around these things anyway I'll I'll let finicky come in on on those last points about the statutory services and the ways of working
thank you thank you David
Cheshire blocked on mouth
is paid so yes on festival since the statutory points and after such responsibility to ensure that we are delivering safe services children people that's kind of my overriding kind of such streak such role so it I would never make any proposals which I felt her would put put children at risk so that that underlines anything and everything that that that can and do and Jane in relationship to savings as a range of things that we've got in place to find the the savings are you you you refer to a lot of that relates to recruitment controls for respite recruitment controls in place already with ensuring people services and that's ahead of the rest of the Council given the scale of the overspend of will nest directed reduce those earlier and other other parts of the Council and also includes controls around agency staff in particular we've got quite high dependency unit the staff obviously we do need some agency staff to clear agency social workers go back to my first point we need to deliver a safe service to children young people so they will continue to be aitches his top but we're looking to reduce that there are some budget lines which are had underspends already lodged against them so are we are holding those now so those Furzer can are captured or ready and then a significant piece of work looking at our spend particularly around placements and a range of actions around that and again we've already started doing that work we've captured some of those savings already but with were continuing with that work stream book on a daily on a daily basis and Sir Lynton to that is to ensure that we capture partner contributions to that so historically we've not always been as good passes we could have been at ensuring that if a child has placement has an education elements to it that we are making sure that high-needs block that it had schools Grant is properly or build for that and although that just moves money within my director to some extent and then probably more significantly the number of young people who have got arrange health needs and to we haven't heard any clear mechanisms for making sure that we get the contribution from from health and been working really closely with the CCG Our since I arrived really to ensure that we have mechanisms in place to ensure that that that that that that income incomes for an hour the I word but that money is properly accounted for a and paid for
from health services over and above average number of smaller items there would be looking at as well but it's not going task and we've got her that financial recovery plan which is ongoing and is overseen by the to cabinet members here for finance and for Children's serves his who are overseeing this
thank you very much Piddocke and it's very good to hear are you reiterate the obligations that we have and the kind of red line that we will not cross as a department that has statutory and also moral obligations to you the children young people of Lewisham thank you for so reiterating that
what I'd like to throw throw into discussion is as a couple of thoughts and so we have the opportunity to to make a statement or a recommendation or a suggestion to the public accounts Committee and one thing I thought we might wish to say is to be very cautious about cutting spending all the sorts of services that actually save money further down the line so I think there is the might be
an urge to to reduced services don't seem to have the biggest outcome in the short term but these can be the ones that have a very long-term outcome in terms of preventing escalation
of problems in a child or family's life that then leads to not only a worsening of their situation but actually in our financial cost
it took to the Borough further down the line so to be aware of that that relationship between investing in preventative services the Save later on in the in the other services and the second thing I want to show committee members is that this is a more general point that it may be as a council we have to make hard decisions between universal and targeted services and most of the spending in this department is on targeted services
and I feel personally just personal point of view is the our targeted services should should be the priority and I think that's consistent with the values of the council and also the the corporate
our corporate statement and and the different strategies that we've answered a published in terms of what our our priorities are as a as a service provider that that the these are just my such thoughts to share with you still have another 10 minutes on the sites I don't know whether an order and back on that or contribute something in out independently or of their own I do see Nicholas nets over tea thank you Chair it's we touched on a slightly Merton really just a quote from important it's everything face with the deepest global recession since Second World War and the biggest are brought his collapse in the capital income that I think is going to set quite a lot of offenders in Barra and very evident thing seems like school meals clothing grants and also the problems namely transport which employ young people coming to their their schools and colleges are
I realised that when putting together the young Potočnik plan the about finance but
can we really think in terms of sample came robust in the way in which funds the NATO available to schools to help young people and families Nihat Ali and needs probably having stigma and a portion of the school budget for this outline yet they can shorten money can come too quickly to help people is as is going to be quite a serious problem in the coming months
I'm so excited and found Overview OK and again I think given give me your
question that others may wish to step in
on on the financial absolutely what one of the things we seen through Cave it is that you know poverty and ethnic and Equalities have had paid a significant part in some of the way that people have been impacted and as a consequence that location there through the first thing have some at some of the higher levels
and the Council did step up and intervene but it will say at a tremendous at the moment financial burden and and whether whether we can continue to that is his part of what we're reviewing and will continue to to look at a which as mentioned now that the schools money is separate from the Council's money in the main when that there is the element that overlaps around a central block and some of the special needs but generally speaking the schools how have have their money separately and then Chair to your point about being cautious around preventative services yes quite clearly and also because of the risk of cost-shunting you might be able to say something in Children's but it becomes a burden in housing or you do something now and it becomes a burden when when when the young person becomes a young adult these these of this balance has also to be struck alongside the professional challenge that Councillor Franklin D Johnson also mentioned and I are let Penycae may be start back and come in on this as one
I yes Piddocke the and I'm going to go to Octavia who would like to say something finicky Furse Yachad are never locked that to what her David sexually said it's it's person appoint so these school budget obviously is a very summons for incredibly strict rules about money can money going to schools and you made a point about her clothing gratis she just checked after you make that comment we don't have a clothing grant and I notice the one of the Councillors also made that may come to as well poverty is a big issue so are we know that the number of children eligible Free School meals the significantly increased since March since since the lockdown and across the directorate I call it and colleagues actually across the Council were really worried about the impact of the pandemic on on families many of whom will already CofE on the edge of before the pandemic kicked him so a late linking this to your point around prevention it becomes even more critical that we are doing what we need to to provide early support for those families in that's part of the plan plans that we have ongoing I'll say that in more about electrons in this committee
thank you very much Octavia and then a column
thank you very much and the papers and the presentation is good to at least kind of understand the extent of the problem that were facing I'm I just wanted to pick up on the point that you made Lok about and targeted versus universal and I fully understand the
you know the dire situation that we find ourselves in is likely to mean further reductions to a universal services but I think we need to be really really mindful of the impact of that and the extent to which it limits the preventative work that can be done because if you take the early years as an example and I think good provision is pretty can apparent out it yet the most basic level if children and families aren't accessing services than IPS difficult to pick up the problems as their emerging and as they need support and then how do you get the families into the targeted support you know so I think with if then pretty well today in terms of preserving strong universal provision in our early years even know it doesn't have full geographic coverage of the Khan and argued provision so I would really want us to go into further cuts to that universal provision with our eyes open in terms of the risk that it would the further risk that it would create in terms of people slipping through the Nat and until it gets to a point where they're in crisis and then there picked up for targeted provision so I think we'd you know we'd really want to understand what the impact of those cuts to universal provision are nothing we need to be really careful about not sort of seeing them as a nice to have because they're not for a lot of people there rootin to targeted provision thank you
thank you Chairman acting as an extra point that that the relationship between the two is more complicated I think I said thank you for that
followed and then Hillary
thank you Chair and my question is response to comment that Penycae made him and his reply to lose his question I'm regarding the underspend in the budget areas where there are underspends are we making sure that people are not missing out where money is available because it would these time there is lack of funding for us to have a budget and then in these times to have an underspend I would want to make sure that people who are due to be supported are getting that money how are you making sure that's actually been carried out and bouncing with a genuine underspend and where people are not getting the support they need
sorry I stand there was my question and I forgot all of that
who would like to respond to Colin and all sort Taylor hasn't had a response yet from from officers can I like you David up between the turbine have got to start on the money but then I think they are the ballot of point earned levy Bennett got more today it will it will always happen that some areas within Directorates may be slightly under or overspend that those differences have been exacerbated a little this year just because of the way covert impacted what did happen and what didn't happen so we own things have been a bit more outisde out of kilter this year which is properly where at that point has been made and that and that's the within each accept Directors and for the Directors to ensure that if you look at our by the budget or policy framework within the financial regulations that they they they juggle that through the year and then through the Budget setting if it's a bigger issue we reset going into the next financial year with a formal budget so the fact that we have some and as an overseas not unusual the fact that this year they may be larger is probably more specifically to took over it and then onto the other point about Councillor holiday Hollande's point about the risk balance between universal target I'll I'll let Penycae come close he's closer to the service
thank you yeah and just to kind of repeat teams once could there were saying the same thing stave it so within children people's to act as a large number of budget lines is always movements around within within those lines it's about managing over a budget so I mean just to be clear Chilean people services isn't underspending it significantly overspending sober sitting behind that are a number of different different budget lines because of the can other covert experience there are some areas and these are not directly services to to families because we need to provide those services but the sort of service areas where we've not been on to do things that we originally can a plan though we were too because we just not going to do it church-run lockdown period so now in terms of trying to manage my budget yet I need to look at the total the total budget on the point of universal and targeted it's really difficult because it's a continuum says very very difficult to say we can cut eggs and an investing why because children unless and operate like that though for purpose they have a range of needs and at different points they need access to universal provision of which education the probably the best example and then you know they need a range of interventions if their if their addition support required and I think that's what we are trying to do in terms of a wider early help and prevention system is to recognise that continuum across and to ensure that we have the support in place at the right moment obviously
when you open your managing a budget in the current circumstances in at some point as officers we are going to have to make to consider some areas that in in another world we would choose not to reduce or to cut and that's that's the place were not at the moment trying to consider what those areas are going to be her we we will clean as officers make those recommendations and then an Camarón cabinet you know with Sport scrutiny will come to a view but none of us would want to make those decisions in the first place were rather knocked owing that
Arthur thank Piddocke I'm good take Hillary now be the last
the Member to speak on this particular item as we and then after move on to the to other items and in fact and noted that some of the stuff we're talking about is probably anticipating some of the detail that we're gonna get in the next two items and Hillary yeah just just conscious Chair of the immense digital poverty situation that we had an during lockdown and I think you know that that we were promised or this sound money from the central government and I think that it resulted about a thousand laptops of the whole of Lewisham or something like that and I suppose you so civilly inundated by the amount of support for school so for summer schools as well
yes I'm so I'm just thinking that that obviously bearing in mind that sort of huge gap between those at half devices and broadband and access to to with birth parents who could support them and those that don't that's of the re re really to be to be thinking about it tells of how we as address anything we do get from from Central government anything we can do to to
to try and plug that gap because clearly it's going to get ever wider and if recent figures are anything to go by we could end up with a second either universal locked down in London or certainly some boroughs and that would be absolutely cataclysmic for four I for our learners I would argue
thank you Henry and I can in our I can absolutely and endorse what you said because the local primary school in my ward that that serves a very deprived housing state received two laptops luckily through various means the school itself managed to get I think 30 and and the feedback from the children of families was amazing it sort of transforming when they would that that's the report that the Head passed onto me thank you for making that point this is without we have that having more time on this discussion and I think it's probably quite difficult to capture all the different concerns that we have in in a
out a message to the public accounts Committee but do we want to list one or two areas where we think they should I attention to Cerar make it so loosely say we are concerned about these areas could you could you made sure they entered the thinking behind the proposals that are coming are Ezzor consensus around one or two things you wish to say or do we want to
wait and see what comes back realising that from David and finicky that in a though what not I think that anything that what was said is is news to them hearing it for the first time
it might already be in their thinking than you want a view on that whether we want to
send a message right anything to public accounts with a meeting later this week
if not then we can note we'll keep a note of the you know the matters at we've raised in this discussion and ask and both David and empirically finicky to uni to do so to and I am sure you well
David that's I think you'll just hear just this one item is that correct
in which case thank you very much for your presentation in Ostrom all those questions opinion the there you're going to stay with us is that right
On Italy and I hate to the end
yes the end sounds a bit more sort of the forbidding in the context of what we are talking about that to the end of the meeting that's that's what you mean

7 Children's Social Care Post Ofsted Report

so we'll move on to item 7 Lucy hate is here our Director of Children's social Care this is an item and an area that the Committee has been tracking for a number of years are the children's social care improvement plan that that rose after an inspection that
the first inspection took place in late 20 15 some of us were on the scrutiny committee at the time remember the report was written in 20 16 so are say no more and ask Lucy for anything you'd like to say before we go into questions and comments please post at you usually CERT chance to do that
I came an evening everybody and say just that report I flee outlines to you all of the improvement activity that we've been doing since the I lacks inspection from Ofsted back in July and I think probably that I mean the chart in section 4 and Appendix B provides a summary of the impact of those changes
I would draw your attention to the overall you know we have seen improvement over the course of the year is worth bearing in mind that of the 12 months since the last inspection 6 months of it we've been operating in COVID and there is no doubt that the our ability now in in having to adjust our way of working particularly in the first three months of lockdown that has had an impact on the pace of the improvement that we've been able to make but nonetheless we've still made
improvements and some having more impact than in some areas than others of course we don't have the capacity to do everything at once so you you will see from from that Cha that there is some improvements it a stronger sort of evidence of improvement in insalubrious rather than others we know from our quality assurance activity that we are seeing a gradual shift in the standards of practice but the vast majority of our social practices still what I would describe as reasonable but still needs improvement to be judged as good by Ofsted and by us
we've had some good success in recruitment now feel confident that we will now move to 80 percent permanent 85 percent permanent staffing by December of this year we've had very successful recruitment campaign to got big one out of the NOMA please please tweet it forward and just in terms of COVID we had to of seen redefine and re re work how we were delivering services we are increasingly getting back to business as usual now Councillor Johnson Fragonard's comment about visiting a course faced getting back to face to face visiting as are one of our key priorities about 95 percent of our staff are now back out working in the community and we are resuming face to face visit and business as usual increasing increasing month on month Kauser one of our biggest challenges is practice around corporate parenting which had at the the biggest sort of length of journey to go and a course of attached to that is that is the financial challenge if it we've already been talking about so I'll of a think are pause there in and allow for questions chasm
I'm sure you have a few
a further verbal up loosely under Wormley definitely take on board the extraordinary amser the period through which the improvement programmes had to travel
no one anticipated it and thought yet thank you very much for rightly highlighting that so I'm I'll take and for the questions and comments I think Hillary is first
thank you good faith thanks very much to do see some severely suffer any could see some some real sets of Luba I'm just wondering bearing in mind oversee they're all with offset they farm advised in other college I am I work for that they will be coming back to to respect I just wondered whether they had whether you got any idea as to the impact of the Reno restarting in terms of where they are likely to to come back for their monitoring visit awful inspection visit just so that we can I dare of time frames out all if you know it thank you ship shall I K I taking other questions Chair before I launch in Nora and a valid many Cher's collect two or three questions the the typical question from this committee is quite a detailed in depth so I like an I served them one at a time I think I find I learning when we Ammon we actually had our annual conversation with Ofsted to date and if Kenickie wants to come in and talk about that they don't share with you when they are due to come back
and we are anticipating having either a smaller focused inspection or a joint targeted area inspection and between now and April it will correct me if I'm say anything here out that better an the the full Ilex inspection is on a 3 yearly cycle so it wouldn't be anticipating that to be for another couple of years at Pinner kid you want to add anything year it's so to receive ask that question because I'm as Lucette we actually were in a meeting of Ofsted this afternoon and it's part of thoughts called an annual conversation or
and on the concession so it will be no surprise that I was pushing them to to try to get a sense of when when they might be revisiting Ofsted will never say when their kind becoming or not coming it's Sullom it's an no pepper to give notice her for for inspections as Lucy said we we think it'll probably be a focused visit which is sure to visit which doesn't have a judgement of the and it's and narrative report that comes at the end of that and if I was going to put any money on it I would say after Christmas OK
don't quote me
Liz thank you Chair and yes it did Councillor
she I missed that sorry I just wanted to ask him Lucy thank you for your the detailed report and the update and just a couple of questions and the report on 6 point to you say that the thresholds in massive Temperley been raised because a feathered are you looking have they been reduced now are looking at reducing them or you get a kick the map that higher threshold because affirm projections in the future in terms of phone in a potential lockdown or changes my other point was on sorry sorry on Appendix B and reading of the significant improvements which really look good and the and the ones that are yet that had some improvement the areas of less activity or improvement was actually me less activity
or improvement needs to different things is it less activity on being able to work through those points and Guetta a solution or is improvement me as the improvement aspect meaning that you're working on it but this improvements have been slower than anticipated thank you OK thanks so an
so the first question in relation to thresholds in the Nash yes we did we raise them at largely because of the impact of and are staffing not being able to function in the community for a range of health reasons during lockdown that those thresholds are being gradually lowered back down again to are near to where we normally would be a and but part of the reason that we're not going to take them all the way back to where they were is because simultaneously were working on developing and strengthening that targeted L early help offer so we do have a high rate of assessments in them Lewisham compared to our London Authority benchmarking authorities and that's partly been as a result of that we haven't had really strong early help targeted offer so in the creation of the of the kind of the temporary family information and support service the fears and it was set up in response to Kobe to help you know for those families didn't me a high threshold they could be redirected to help elsewhere where we we were we think that is safe to do so we'd like to try to keep families and in the early Help service as opposed to come into the statutory sector unnecessarily because we know there have been too many families in the in our system so that I think it's probably fair to say it they're coming back down but we don't want to go back exactly where they were but that has to be done in line with the development of the early Help service and that is going to you know over the next six months have been that's the next report and develop in the early help system so that that's the first question and the second question was about the yes or sorry that Les activity or improvement so I suppose the after his both some of it is I think I said in that kind of introduction is not possible always to work on everything at once and there have been some areas as the Ofsted Improvement where they recommended improvement where we focused on more and others were we haven't been able to focus on his March and a good example of that would be our corporate parenting and are services to looked after children are we hadn't been able to give as much attention through 2 thousand 19 as I would have liked and that's partly will and should say largely actually in fact as result of the fact that we didn't have a permanent head of service through that whole year I think for Heads of Service in that period and period where we didn't have one at all and not having a lead for that whole area does have a huge impact on on your ability to drive the improvements forward so we did what we could without that that and it really does impact on your capacity so it's a combination some of the areas that you'll see listed in their sofa we know the top four assessment time in this high rates of assessment and Core Group meetings are all to do with performance to some degree I've listed them in that bottom group because we didn't have as much of an impact on them as we would as we were intending to and now with you know we've improved those we've started to work on now so for example Core groups in our up at 94 percent whereas at the time a firm
at the end of that report I think they were down at 60 percent or something so it a combination of what we haven't had the impact that we had hoped but also we haven't had the capacity to give as much attention as we would of light
clearly lit Ruth Sherlock Holmes book
but Leeds lose I'm afraid you'll muted
then such as one to say thank you very much occuring that's I think
so I just want to let everyone know the okay the lights went out in the Laurence House but they returned so just for a minute I will look very ghostly and I was just worried about the fact that might happen people watching the live stream anyway that's over so
I've got Councillor Jack pursue nets
I'm looking for the Dan Yr that the the tables and so on it seems the recruiting in house foster carers and keeping a young people and children locally something that be found bit difficult and I wonder how that fits thinking about the housing situation in Lewisham hoping the people are going to have a lot more space that they need other than the one you might get empty-nesters but in Lewisham people tend only to have accommodation that ease ease what they require and so I just wonder how the Housing Association at the housing situation sits alongside the desire to keep children both the local and and Lewisham
residents sewing but not but that's not necessarily the to goes together because you can be 6 fee outside Lewisham and that that that's local but I'm that the houses situation sit alongside that because the further you live out into Kent or or Surrey the more likely you are to refer a bit more space
2 Add say there's two parts to that and
we have struggled to gain and net increase in in-house foster carers and that's part of the Sir connected to the concession had before about the that the pressures on the budget so have larger numbers than we shared of young people and place looked after children placed with Independent Fostering agencies and residential supplements which cost more and the housing situation I'm not sure to what degree that impacts on our ability to recruit and retain foster carers we know that there are a large number of foster carers who live and work as foster carers in Lewisham but they work for independent fostering agencies instead of the council and attracting them over to work for Lewisham as an employer of choices is quite a challenge so not sure to what degree the houses situation impacts on that and have some impact but weakness for that the more so the housing situation and the availability of housing for on careleavers is is particularly placing a a pressure on the on the budget we do have
500 careleavers and we have a duty such treated before them with support vice commendation etc. and we have a large numbers of our careleavers in semi independent accommodation which is very expensive and partly because were struggling to find accommodation independent accommodation and studio single single bedroom flats for them to move out onto so housing is definitely challenge for us more so probably with careleavers than is with foster carers AM and looking at creative ways of using existing assets and working with the
voluntary Sector around improving what we commission for some independence and expanding housing passive careleavers won the key key workstreams in our financial recovery plan and Pinnock yet no few want to talk any more about the work we've been doing directly with housing on that
Mawthorpe only loosely return with having lots of concerted 2 thousand or in terms of aligning are kind of various activities and objectives because actually it's an a collective interests to ensure that and the most vulnerable people are accommodated her and also that we're not spending money on expensive placements either within the Borat's I Papa but it's an active piece of work were on at the moment isn't really positive work with housing at the moment
thank you I'm just before come to Councillor clues next I'm I don't the notice the if quite it's it's it's been a long term problem recruitment of in-house fostering and is quite a gap between the target and our achievement and I know that's not not for want of effort
but given that it's it's still a challenge given the children moving applicable slowly at the moment then it seems to me that there will be increased financial
pressures on our placements budget and I hope that when the cuts proposals come that they will be realistic and take into account
and you know what the situation is is really like out there as opposed to how we would like the situation to be so just just add that comment come up conversation in that that it that we've all been having hairline
and here cheer thank you Lucy for you are
detailed analysis of what you have provided I'm just looking at our pain gets all be talking about support for funnily where domestic abuse is a key future I've got about four or five funnily
in my ward and the day we are thinking away and yet nobody check-ins
when and where they finally gave how his whether we are put if good the poly Keith
nobody has said from that sometimes she some deformed crying every night and the secondly for my Shirley for her to travel away to come to lowish would hurt you really fit probably she got one of them go to autistic children and she's not actually cooking Welch's not leaping well I'm just wondering
how are we monitoring bids family who are very far from lowish for your Transportation for the House is when you report are we monitoring that
and so I would probably need to know this that specific circumstances Councillor because affair if the family are not actually living in Lewisham then the responsibility of the provision of services to that family forced to the authority in which they live or even if we have in effect moved that family into a different borough unless the children are looked after children the the services provided by the family when they were they ordinarily reside so properly to check the the circumstances of those individual families to see whether that's something that that are either Lewisham be providing or a neighbouring borough where they currently live
I am happy to do that if you want to forward me the details we go OK thank you
the thank you both coloured
losers will want to ask the question about the rise me which by my helping to underpin forward in terms of the policy context and the key priorities foster curation me an issue about not being able to get access to her files because you couldn't get in contact with a PA and ensure like a found that there are fall was classified as restricted and this delayed her from going some funding so and she said to me that she didn't know that her father was restricted and so is is a protest by foster carers know who they can get support or contact if they can't get in contact with the direct PA
because she realises that she has lost funding for university place for the person she was looking after and said it might point to raise with you in something going forward so in terms of access to information here as I would Eshaness
Arcadia so again I probably need to look at the exact circumstances if you aren't afford me the details I'm happy to do that the if it Sir to foster care it doesn't necessarily have a case file as restricted because the the our case files relate to the child that placed so it might be that the foster carer was restricted from accessing their care leavers file and the child's file that might be the circumstance but I think there regardless of that there's there's the question of who does the foster carer contact in order to get that the thing done that that the it missing or isn't being that hasn't been picked up fix probably best if we if you if you forward me the details of of the of the carer and the young person I could look into that and come back to you directly
thank you I'm happy to do that and she said everything else was perfectly fine she was happy with everything else there was just one incident so I'll do that thank you very much yeah OK
up Frank he come and Lucy and felt that there are no other requests to contradict from members just them just one comment from myself regarding the future scrutiny of the programme so I think I think it was you Piddocke that suggested at bringing an item on safeguarding and exploitation in March
and I just wanted to flag up now that should additional Carter stresses
take place between now and then or Ofsted have that you know that that that term visit that you're talking about a we may ask for a an update in March on on the on the A B or C improvement programme I've just to let you know that you know we will want to discuss it amongst ourselves and see whether it requires a further update or whether some other form of of keeping us up to the up to date is more appropriate
and and finally something I always mention it's it's it's it's a small point but I was mentioned in this context which is I really I do understand the value of video phone calls particularly with children place far away that who are difficult to visit and that that adds a lot and we're using remote and not achieve thing the very positive way given that this Zone where we can meet but I personally don't think that there is such a things virtual visits
I don't think that we are visiting each other tonight no and visiting me even though we are in a wee having valuable kind of interaction
I always mentioned that I feel I should tonight as well just to be consistent
thank you very much for the well not just presenting the
presentation but also for leading on such a huge Shaitly important shakily now demanding piece of work in in really difficult circumstances Lucy wait we really do appreciate that so thank you shout
8 here

8 Early Help presentation

I want to move on to item 8 now the early Help Review and an is sort of is telling how important this item is because it in other items Budget and Children's social pair the Work Programme in elements that the discussion about target in universal so many of those and things that have sort of grabbed our attention
On in a living side this item that's coming up next so it's an it's really good to have the opportunity to spend in a a piece of time now this is a final item in this really important area and the property of God suicides to present I hoping that people had an opportunity to look at them in advance so that spend too long on them because that frees up the opportunity for comments and questions
but I imagine you will want to sort of take us through them
briefly that right Penycae is happy to do that I I you you should have had to circulate to previous I can also share my screen some have to to either to if you wanted to put the slides up on the screen yet by all means because I we can contact each other through the through the chat box that you can take over the screen OK just to warn you and take over the screen I can't see anyone on on on on screen so I'll independent a new chair to just direct me to have as asking a question OK I've promised that I will there with me one moment while I just to this
ask it
I apologise it says that there's no fall available I can see it here so am
he just
if you can't find them
are right should be working now
they can never unsee that as the wrong end to the slightest go to the Arena showing
so you'll require I chaired so and prevention and early help is critical to the kind of the whole work that we do around she'll children young people and I been imposed enough 3 months hopefully that provides some sense of consensus urgency I see with the work that we're doing here and there is background and use her as a as a as a as as as councillors and as the CYP select will be very aware of the context that we have in innovation and previous kind of reports that have noted concerns with or without early help and prevention services following following the Committee in January in a course following the the covert pandemic and as Lucy referred earlier on in her presentation we have set up her family information and support service and that's been operating since April and also apology by thrive Board has also been established so those things have happened to date
going forward there is now a early help and prevention improvement programme in place and there the seven work streams that are working to that and those are listed listed here and am just wanting to do is give you a very quick update and we were up to with each of those work streams this progress start in July s of see we were only a couple of months into it
tokens Chair Board is chaired by myself as it had established in July we are intending that by December Afisha model for delivery should be agreed with a new early help are targeted services Tabish by March 20 21 and then from April will need to move into Phase 2 so progress to date in terms of family support you'll probably be aware there was an agreement Mayor and Cabinet to decommission the external family support service that's been operating a recently or the timings of this are to some extent dependent central government funding for troubled families and Chair you made reference that her early Ron we have extended temporary fizz team through until March were working on the model for talk to family support but we need to engage with families because I think it was a useful talk to the people receive those services and also frontline workers that's that's the kind of the next element of that work to to and what's really important the family supporting must be joined up with the wider early help and prevention system there's initial planning for the transfer of staff and were also once we've Urgha clear about the model will then start work on information advice and guidance arrangements in relation ship to targeted Youth we've had some exploratory meetings with a you first and there was an external review carried out by HMI Inspector during the pandemic period so Ofsted lent us one of their inspectors and he had a background in USA ease cannot review and he'll be presenting the outcomes of out in the session out Toba with earth I first but also the Young Mayor's team will be present and up and is really important we've got the voice of young people in anything that we too are going forward
I am aware that some of you have taken an interest in in if services new first and of see first have expressed concerns about their future future can have contract in relationship Cham children and family centres were working on a family hub approach and we're looking at family helps as being much wider than the current Sure Start Children's centres delivering a mixed universal and targeted services but going beyond just what would sit within a children and poor people he pulled Scott Directory so we are in conversations with a range of other services about other elements that of support can be delivered from single from a single hub were currently looking at the buildings in the estate across across the Borough obviously we're looking at buildings that sit within children people services but there are other buildings that sit outside of the director who I think it's important we consider choric at the hubs in the right place we think that the family support teams may make sense for those to be geographically based teams working out of the family helps
and within the Children's centres there has already been a beginning of apparent champion programme and are still wrong see real opportunities to extend that programme much further so we've got a range of parents who become cannot local experts in their communities or health lots of conversations health really positive relationships with the CCG and it's really helpful that we have joint commissioning service that sits actually within the directorate that are commissioned some of their services so we're looking obviously to motion or mental health needs identify that already serve as an air of interest to the Committee 0 looking at her the role of children's community health services and a committee will vary where that obesity is also an issue for us in illusion virtual young people think SSC Andy and the young people's health and wellbeing service which can have links into substance misuse and sexual health services as well
the national I fry framework as what we're looking at his being cut of the umbrella arrangement for how we deliver those health services going forward
in terms of education contextual safeguarding away looking at her scoping earners very much be s-worth lucy's leading and Edge of Care Service so an educator service is not an early help service in its technical sense because these are what would be a Service working of children and families that already receiving a social care service but in terms of that spectrum and continuum working across its ensuring that there's not a break between what you might call an early help and and Children's social Services a continuum going through into that and those important links to the Metson Centre now sexface Team 0 we're looking at developing specific her therapeutic support for Chilean people linked into the edge of care service
we're working her with a developing and exploitation as strategy and the youth offending services absolutely critical to that piece of work and intervention activities to disrupt exploitation are being explored present
so in conclusion and there is a lot of activity going on at the moment and the critical point is that we must build a single system so this is not 7 workstreams seven unrelated piece of activity it's how they all join together for a total early help and prevention system that's the intention there were seeking to to to work towards and really happy to answer any questions
and thank you politically that was a really a briefer accident or excellence a précis and one of the work very valuable and I'm just looking to see who would like to add to the start be and the discussion off first so I will start with I'm Octavia and then Les and then Lillian
thank you and thank you for that update Pinner key as a committee with been looking at this with officers for quite a while now so it's good to hear about where it's going and have my questions got a couple of questions in relation to the Children's and family centres so first of all look on a fundamental question wussy actual driver between moving from children and family centres to family herbs is it financial is it to improve the service is it to change the service and I note the point and there about reviewing all the buildings so you know again I would quite like to understand the motivations behind that and then I would like as well to request that as a committee we can see what's been done in terms of looking at the population needs in terms of the under-five services and I've been asking for this for about a year now I think but I would really like to understand what are understanding is of the needs of under fives population before we are told what the plans to change the services are so the kind of analysis that's been done of the changes to the population over the last few years and how we're going to kind of align our plans for under 5 services with while population needs are and where you know the most vulnerable cause far population are so I'd really like to understand more about that banking
OK so the driver isn't financial that's the really important point it's interesting actually being in your question you say you've kind of answered the fifth equate the question because you referred to under-fives so the children and family centres very much focused on the early years but families are much wider than just the early years so the thinking behind the family Hogg is that they would they would be places that would work not just for families with young children but for families with older children as well so that that's that's that's the motivation towards the change it's absolutely not a financial one and in terms of buildings that's a piece of work we're doing at the moment Sock are not able to tell you exactly where we are thinking is in relationship to those buildings I am aware however that in addition to children family centres they are also a number of other community can venues across the Borough quite a lot of them and what that saw the feedback I'm getting his her families go to different places for different things and that can be confusing for them so that one of thinking on the family hub is having a place and it may not just be one building may be a hub and spoke arrangement in which a family can come for a much wider set of support and services so for example they could earn potentially come on if if have got financial difficulties to get advice and support around that they could be looking at the gotta cannot adolescent they're concerned about so links into the issue and as Atlas and risk and and vulnerability that though the be somebody could provide support for them as well around that says extending it beyond just the early years
you asked about a needs assessment intensive the younger population again to fives population I don't have any recent data on that but I have had conversations with our public Health colleagues around their Programme for the Joint Strategic Needs analysis and if that's an area that the members think it's important to have an updated can beat analysis than and very happy to to follow follow that up with our public Health colleagues
yes Octavio and come back on this but before are angry for live gleefully yet he and thank you Pilecki for that I mean I guess a few things are very briefly so in terms of the JS and I in relation to the earlier as I think that would be super helpful at some point obviously that process takes a bit of time I think what we as a Committee need to understand a bit more of is what the kind of evidence base in the understanding of our population as could to inform the changes that are proposed
so obviously we're looking at how we could reconfigure services Bear and have family centres but we must have some understanding of what our population needs to be able to do that so I think we need information but how those decisions are going to be made and I doubt the timescales for Jess and I would fit in with that so that's what I'm kind of trying to get out on that I mean the the plans around the family centres I yeah I think again and obviously this will be followed by the rest of the committee to make a decision on his well but I think it would be really helpful for us to stand understand more of the rationale behind it because our for Anna no saying whether it's a good idea about I do I don't know because I don't of understand enough about why it's been leapt up but the family centres as it stands they do have some services in them for older children beyond 5 year old dry at the moment is not just under-fives so what kind of thing are we looking at in terms of bringing more services N and or those who like to understand how we're going to kind of preserve what we do in terms of early years if we're going to incorporate other services within it because obviously NI there are some things that are very much geared towards young families and the whole thing just need to be managed very carefully and I know of a see you it no lot about that so good I think from my perspective that it could potentially be quite a big shift to now be good for us to understand more about the thinking behind thank you know Mick Claire me come back on the Mac
she was quashed locker sample Mumsnet missed something out in my response but
there are some services aimed at all old old older from older children that the bulk of the marines at younger children pipe unfortunately have not visited one of the children family centres in in Lewisham and that his her that's an issue for me personally but that there have a number of colleagues of course who have do a lot of work with 0 cents per to both those centres what we're looking at looking at what's happened in some other parts of the country and turns our approach to kind of wider family work trying to can also operate at pace because I think as you said in your very first question there's been a lot of debate previously around can have an early help system but it doesn't appear to have moved into actually affecting the change so I I have set a very tight timescale to a timescale for the teams to work with new proposals we haven't developed those proposals yet so what I'm sharing views early thinking around what that might look like we working through a number of scenarios and the number of evidence in terms of usage and need but that's what we're doing at the moment and then we also want to do is to test that out so I think if we really useful to test it out with families the families who use services
and it's entirely possible that families will say no don't do this this is the worst thing you could possibly to don't go down that route so this is this is where we're at at the moment and in our thinking so yes a suggestion of you the early thoughts you have for found this at some point we will need to come up with a really firm proposal and obviously there's like a decision that will need to go to Mayor and Cabinet around that and unopposed going back to current Chairs earlier point I imagine the this committee will then want to to kind of ask questions around around the proposal said that that sort of where items were testing things out at the moment we haven't got a can't share with you the plan because the plan doesn't exist yet so which is working working through the scenarios I thank you
thank you pretty cute and yes as a
please keep us abreast of when the detail arrived where we might be able to have a slightly different flow that conversation on the Inner on the detail and adjust quick as an I have delivered some youth work in one of Hackney's to the hubs I don't know whether you this is based on a model that one of the other London boroughs is ism is using are you are you are you looking at particular models in other London boroughs that you can name or is it wider than that
we are looking at models not just taking land along the horrors of the past country I'm afraid I can't top my tell you with acne is one of those so I'll pass McCulley just to check on a heck Hackney although I do not let somebody on this meeting is to work in Hackney so I might ask Councillor I develop that model in Hackney so I'm very familiar with it so I can make sure that it then feted which centre we you out loca feel fondly about those centres on the one year from Thorsten Kings and station OK yes I know thank you it's the only one I know so thank you so we we will expect further detail LiS I K yet thank you Chair I'm going to go back to the progress to date on targeted Youth as you'd probably expect me to and I was going to ask another question with that Octavia raised the issue about our targeted service on universal services and the need not to dilute the universal service because that's part of the preventative work that might not lead into targeted services that I've got and I found another question so it says external review carried out with a report this meeting will also workshop that work the key themes to follow up into actions now if there's at what those actions
contradict the specification of the forthcoming contract the Youth first because as already specifications in discussions taking place about targeted aspects so is this going to be an additional change to the specification because I'm I'm concerned Pinnock I might have it wrong because I'm not an expert on on these things I just got a concern that the specification was sent out a k you've first answered it and I know you have some views about it the understandable I understand clearly but I'm just feeling that this things things start to getting a bit rocky and changing and is becoming a bit destabilised I want to make sure that things are firm and clear both for ourselves as the local authority and both for you first in its way in its work and its projected work with young people in the future and case o Youth first absolutely engaged in this process Yana
I got session so the specifications than cure referring to the specifications we we put out some months ago yet subsequent to that we been do have number conversations with with members of you first and as have the review also took place in the reviewing vault again discussions with you for nothing yet yeah route the process we're engaging you first but other I suppose from a Council perspective we need we need to be really clear what we need what we mean no of targeted Youth that earned if I'm totally honest I'm not sure if historically we've been clear ourselves what we mean by it
so the discussions we have had to date has been helping to explore those those thoughts we've now got review which has got a series of observations and some thoughts that we might want to explore more fully and the session in October should be part of that journey that we've already on we we will need to refresh the specifications are in on from that she not tell us what that that's that's the that's the point I just wanted to tap clarified yet fresh I fashion adapt and change to different had two different meanings
well I might or might for you it might have one meeting but for the receiver and Youth first and Feroz as as the local Councillors in Inner local politicians it has a different meaning and I just want to make sure that everything is clear so we're not doing a new procurement process out valid question barred your question you tears yeah yeah so that's that's not we're looking at but I think the specification was submitted were not shook the company was I think is before before Christmas
no it was in it was November October November yeah yeah so did not lead to a clear outcome in terms of yes so following on from that for her being conversations obviously some of those conversations happened before my arrival illusion so my rival probably has thrown things up a little a little bit and I do apologise about it there that's helpful as health ago but I've I guess I've come with a slightly different thought of you and I am used to working with very closely on long not a youth work and I've ever been a youth worker and I'm really used to working over many many years closely review services in youth workers and re can really see the value of the work that they do but there's a balance between universal and targeted which I think is part of the concessionary had had a had earlier on and I'm not sure as a Council we've always been clear about that balance
so the session in October I'm hoping will make that much clearer but rather than us in the Council sitting in a darkened room writing that up and presenting it to you first it felt appropriate to co-design bear where you nursed in the room and also I must say with young people as well and of course I mean there get I mean the at them are the main issue is that are at the moment at the moment the deadline the contract at the moment these will matters we need to see I know I know I know but I just I wanted to make sure that was raised so thank you very much for your response appreciate A Pinnock literature you lose or are going to suggest that perhaps in addition to this meeting maybe myself and the Vice-Chair and Liz
I have a conversation with your Piddocke outside of the meeting where we can spend a bit more time
and and and more detail would you would you be would you welcome that of course I would yeah so let's let will will make that happen and but thankfully is that very important and points that you raised just just one one convocation of myself so when I when I hinted that that it might be necessary to make cuts in universal services as a result of the financial stabilisation plan I didn't mean within CYP I was actually thinking of services outside of children and young people not the universal services within children and young people but I'm glad that I did much what I meant the think it has stimulated a really important
sort of question that does need to be asked and I appreciate all the contributions that people made on it since then
over to you now thank you I'm the lime a parent governor representative on the Committee the question I have is around our being community now none of us can deny the current political climate and all things happening in the news but my question is about what strategies what thinking what planning has gone into incorporating in are the very visible very apparent and it's been no evidenced in reports that that they've been committed to the committee in about the inequalities that that the this our Michael interface to know what's what's can appeal that's being culpable hat that's being considered in early help all stowing in all the strings of all our work that we're doing how that being considered and implemented or are now at the end of my report the statements we have the quality statement that says you know we've got time to be had acknowledged his but how this is going to work in practice how are we going to technologies particularly during the pandemic as well because actually in the pandemic the bank guarantee has been has been highlighted as being more likely to be affected by confident the repercussions of that but I just want to know what's being considered all it's been incorporated into a planning
OK so within the country the workplan and working towards one of the really important here is that there is a focus is particularly black Caribbean so you've used term BAME as a kind of users a wider Jinshan generic term and
there are some BAME communities to children who are actually doing OK indication and there are some who definitely not and the Black Caribbean community would be the one I would say definitely not doing as well as this year to in Lewisham
I mean that there is an element of across the country so Lewisham's not totally out of step with with the rest of country that can never be an excuse there's been a lot of conversations that have had a we've different can a members of from 1st different groups who provide support or prior challenge to us historically in terms of outcomes for Black Caribbean view her children young people educational outcomes are poor and again will be having a report coming through to this committee in the future on that matter but also if you look at the young people are represented within the criminal justice system there's a Croce overrepresentation of particularly black happy and young people and actually boys in particular we within that so your right to say that there's work done around that I'm hoping that through those conversations with can relevant can community can have representatives that we develop a a steering group or coalition or Sundt some overwriting can a body that involves representatives and communities but also council and also other can a key statutory organisations including schools and that through that we have a clear plan in place for how we're going to make a change to those current outcomes already work has started within our school so schools are just before the summer break commissioned a piece of work to look at inequalities and races him in effect with within school system her and an initial report has been produced from that and
that's actually something I'm going to be talking about on Friday with members from those doing community groups in terms of what Pat report says and then from that and I'm hoping will be a plan so in relation particularly to early help and prevention there's a focus their around
inequalities for a range of groups so you if you you picked particular on pain but there are other groups that wheels have concerns about in terms of poor poor outcomes so we we need focusing on all of those groups across the borough to ensure that we address that so I suppose that I've got a general answer relationship to early help and prevention and then something very very specific around like Caribbean witches can have a parallel piece of work that were involved in a moment
all of these things connect up of course
thank you and that you want it would you like about what you're saying early or earlier visiting patients first was including young people you discussion about so as to the BRE I we're that how that happened just across the board because even the Luton we have such a rich and diverse community and there are lots of resources eat within our community that can be tapped in to and used to help inform what you're going to do so it makes the needs the Lewisham residents and the committee so thank you no absolute review in our I think we should be doing more of that in the future
I'm thankfully and Penycae and one of the unfortunate consequences of meeting remotely is that we're no longer able to meet it a space where members of the community are able to sit around us see what we do and and reminder self of of Urbina who we are here to represent it said I'm it's great to be live-streamed but I do miss I think we all do the and ensure that that closer proximity of unit of the of the of the people who live and work and study
a solution
I'm next is
Caroline please
thank you cheer Africa using them my comment for lown on your remit no Kaleka I feel discussed before so I will leave it for now
OK OK Caroline thank you will I'm well whatever it is will make sure we take it up yeah in that forum then but any more comments or questions on on early help and early help so I have one if I may first of all this is unsafe as it takes you pointed out earlier it's been quite a long time that we've been engaged with a review of a of early help I think beginning of last year may be February is the first time and and the but this is the first occasion when I'm beginning to see with more clarity what the service should not like feel like in the future and I think that's that's important
I am absolutely into the details I thought able support that aren't there but I'm beginning to see how this integrated ordinated service inner is beginning to form I welcome that my question is inevitably is given the changes in our funding situation will we be able to deliver what it is you know this vision that's beginning to for we'll be able to deliver in the inner in financial envelope in that's expression but it looks like we're going to have to so to live with him
sorry I take you back to the very first report the heart in terms of the and the overspend across the Chilean people services one of the reasons one of the kind of fee can underlying reasons why there is a significant demand for children's services and particularly for statutory services and particularly the children social care services is because our prevention and early help services are not managing the demand earlier on in in the lives of those of those families so I can flip I'll flick a question the other way
which is if we don't make sure that we have a preventive care service in place then this committee in future years will almost certainly be scrutinising challenging and questioning why they chilling and People's Directorate is continuing to massively overspent its budget so we must make sure that we have a prevention and early help system in place the cost of that is significantly less than the current cost of providing those expensive interventions fell Chilean people which at their highest end in terms of youngsters ending up in residential care
is multiple thousands of pounds every week for teachers to hold a child in in a place so we have to make sure now that we create the system that will manage them to demand over the next few furies of course my that that the challenge I have
his to both manage the current budget while re designing a prevention service so so you might want ask that question and a couple of years' time in terms of whether managed to do that that's that's the intent and and I know that works in other places and it's worked in other places where I've worked as well so I know that in the long term you can manage a budget down reduce your spend but actually meet the needs of families much earlier than they are known to notion
thank you indicate that that's exactly the answer that I wanted to hear and I'm sure I'm a fellow members of the Committee am yr wanted to hear the investment in this service is something that like yourself rethink his is crucial and to get the outcomes that we're all and not very point to all of us and and if there are no more so comments and questions and thank you for them the presentation and to
a and the answers that the that you give an does anyone else want to add a comment or question on this item
so Owler Nicholas I although you didn't put a queue in the chat box I can see your hand I won't pretend I couldn't see it so they are please go ahead
thank you Chair at the get very similar piece of research like this debate that three years ago when best now was chaired education in the city and I put a proposal to you rather than PAPs to finicky is an would it be possible to think of members making some visits to the hubs to see what's going on to give you an I dust were one incident we went to one place where the Children's Centre was just a box of toys which was put out to the corner of the library carpet once a week to others which are really well equipped I think it's just seeing what is going on would be they helpful and then also the the second point put pinching is really were into stages at the moment and some of the things we have spoken about things like emotional or mental needs and set the a lot of young people are suffering from these sort of things moment that to block down and travel problems all this other things that no-man and it seems to me that we probably got to that's have an immediate stream and plans and then as you are suggesting much longer-term plans wealth and it doesn't mean that the toed that relate one another lighting burger utter and though doing ready the he immediate responses to current problems
not realising saying that these are not anywhere this always he got to move on to a much longer-term catches well do things for he said my sited recoup
all of the what you put to me first Nicholas which is and if we if it's practical to make site visits are I think there are immensely valuable but given the restrictions on
face-to-face meetings are and and I'm not sure I'll I'll ALC out take some advice on what the practicality and safety is around making site visits when I think not
he found it to them
I'm sorry you broke you broke up there the line back up
sorry I'm not to fully appreciate what you're saying I'm thinking not neatly but longer-term when restrictions over a longer term absolutely I think I think it'd be very valuable to make tomate site visits that and yet and and get a feel of What's it like it on the ground so to speak and we can certainly an organised that that the second point you made was Turpin Vicky
I think that was an observation rather than the questions are hung gut response to accept agree though not the gaps have existed for use of tape to take with you had listed you unlocking yes you want to come back to us yet well know I am Charlotte his kindly reminded me that I didn't declare the beginning of the meeting that I and the Council representative sits on the Youth first board so I forgot to do that so I apologise Chair or a Coke note this not a problem and of course we'll we'll know that within the within the Committee but yes it should be it should be mentioned recorded so thank like you ticket thank you for doing that and Emma Wall recorded in the declaration of interest
in which case that brings us to the end of of urban of item 8 and obviously of issues of reward return to
on debt and therefore the end of tonight children young people select committee
I'd like to thank everyone for attending and I know particularly and attending meeting the challenge of having this this tart meeting in the circumstances in which we have it both officers and members
we are next due to meet on a Thursday the 26th of November
between now and then Emma and I will send them a message to Safer stronger committee asking them if they be psychiatrist invite us to when they have the item arm on youth offending I don't know when but when that will be and separately and some members will have a neater with vindicated looked more and more closely at the at youth west
thank you for the a facility staff who made the livestream possible as well
On the meeting is now officially closed so can you end the webcast please