Overview and Scrutiny Business Panel - Tuesday, 29th September 2020 at 7:05pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Overview and Scrutiny Business Panel
Tuesday, 29th September 2020 at 7:05pm 









An agenda has not been published for this meeting.

thank him I'd like to welcome colleagues and members of the public and press and any one else everyone is welcome to the meeting of the Overview and Scrutiny business Panel and Lewisham council mining Phil Brown on the Chair of the Committee we have Full House Laval for 10 member committee here tonight and we have additional councillors and officers who are taking part at different points on the agenda
normally are going to the minutes which is only the first eight money gender but first I'd like to point out that we will not be taking the item number
but let's remember I'd taken it off the item on traffic a carpet measures because the report we received by the officers involved way felt did not meet the criteria we had put forth at did not provide information all answer the questions that we have put officers in correspondence before the meeting and therefore we didn't think it would be a was while use of time of officers councillors and members of the public who we know this item 8 m for is of great interest
so we sent the report back and we have asked for the report to be appropriately changed to meet the criteria that we've asked to answer the questions you put forth and that report will come back to the next meeting of our business panel which is on the 30th of October what I have agreed is that under normal procedures dispatched for that report for our Committee being held on the 30th of October would need to be dispatched on the 5th of October which is the modern day I have accepted them
following representations from officers that we will give them an extended that line of the 9th of October forced to get that report
that seems a fair compromise to give officers time to make sure the have the report in that report the points that we wish to be looked into scrutinised
but also give us time to the African it does the previous Friday to the meeting on the 13th of Tuesday give us enough time to properly scrutinise at report in advance of the meeting so I think apologising and with the public in May of being and shooting in doping to he had this report tells us to support those as you are but we're confident in got this deadline agreed that we get a report that should address the issue concerned that we've raised I less this and he

1 Minutes

questions to that for many members of the business panel and will go straight into the minutes I'm all there any issue with the Minister's any border collie was to find out all Amanda minutes are could he's happy with the minutes I say Councillor Curran's hand and Councillor Curran future whose matter arising before we do that gets a merciful apologies for interrupting can ask don't colleagues introduced him sounds the first time the they take part in the meeting as Chair of that Committee etc. thank you sorry Batley imported from future on Councillor Liam current and chair of the sustainable development scrutiny committee the item I just wanted to raise a matters arising from a question I raised which was stopped from into its on page 4 and I was asking about the number of staff in planning and how numbers are down and I would like her as we do fortunately has the Head of Planning with us tonight I would just like to ask
what's the numbers looking like now it wasn't a optimistic outlook that we were given according to the minutes and I just want to find out what can be if it's if numbers are low is anything we can do to boost them fact pulling people not volunteering Oscar thankfully before EMAS ready according the boatman thankfully defunct all I'm or any other took any of the cuts of any points on the minutes
OK however if if he'd be happy to respond to that please yes I can confirm that at the moment we have our staff back from the volunteering pool however you know since that point since the last meeting we see ourselves going into second wave and we are looking at an you know the next rounds of deployment and what that would mean for the planning service being that no it isn't a critical service in terms of life and limb I think what we are experiencing due to Cove it though is we do have a number of vacancies both within our strategic planning team and our Development Management Team and we are having to hold those vacancies at the moment so we have an less officers dealing with work so I should add that I am still in my volunteering vol supporting the Council's KoFID responses well so I'm probably the only one left in planning and that will that will remain
thanks Omagh Kelley could as colleagues to agree those minutes

2 Declarations of Interests

3 Scrutiny of the Council's Covid-19 Response - Update Report

agreed agreed that the no dissension the next eight of his declaration of interest early colleagues have any declarations on any of the items were going to be looking at the ceiling it will cut indicate best indicate is in the message I don't see anyone so that's cool so no declarations of interest item 3 come under the scrutiny of the Council's COVID-19 responsible people as I said the for do this until HoFS for the first half though the man report with that achieve Executive can write and then we do Salita Akmal her with regard to the hybrid meetings so Kim can ask is anything you would like him to take a moment to present anything go highlight any points in the report before all the public questions
came as everyone is coming from an indication is that a case that Hello
community and escape
I'm sorry Henfield elderly frozen am Etan colleagues here can he metal that looked better that's cool welcome and so I don't know them Look you basically it is it is any point citing like the highlighted report before I open the questions
thank you Councillor yes just a short instruction for me this is the fifth report to business
I am not an artist fencepost and I think it reflection of how fast things are moving since members be seen this report London has across move to the National watchlist is now an area of national concern
we do know there are
all our colleagues finding it difficult to follow them and gave an overcommitted sorry yet you're coming in and out shown are getting half sentences etc
and it wanted to come off with that help to know but I can't be after my camera of that any better that sounds a bit better shall we give it a go get up apologies if a good it's probably best to start from the top of that all right thank you and I might my Polish DEAs are the and that was wrong with might signal ceiling so that this is the fifth report to business Panel on our response to Covid since we've we've written the report of the London has moved to the national watchlist in is deemed an area of national concern based on the the figures of the impact
infections that that we're seeing in the context of the testing capacity not being where we'd like it to be
so the reporting across London utterly lower than the reality of the picture
the petition in in Lewisham is 20 point 1 affected her 100 thousand and across London it's 32 points said on permanently
this report tryst
I was I'm sorry came the it was going OK that is gonna get in any of the shaking heads of colleagues who are facing a difficult act to follow Shalicar tell colleagues we keep on trying to educate in or maybe it's which should the Selina and take a understood in conflict to shoot the meeting if we take the lead the first and give kids some time to maybe try to can so you know you've of your your following this old Chair can I suggest that route there tries hits he's on the boilers justice Road stand and welcome picked up and by the road
I am and I'm happy to pick it up so what the report report does is really setting out now our response to the suit or now planning for a second wave as Kim was outlining
the infection rates are going up and the testings been a problem so it probably doesn't reflect the true position that I think it sort of accepted now that London is at the start of the second way than we begin to see figures rise not just of the infections but number of people now in hospitals and sadly we've had the first two deaths since the beginning of early July so and so we are in that second wave so this report really sets out just are second wave planning arrangements
starting with the fact that previously we had a strategy for our response and this report sets out a further strategy now actually things are changing so quickly that shortly after we wrote this strategy and after this report was done and London issued their new strategy so we have further update in this strategy once more so I suggest we circulate that after the meeting includes trying to ensure some community cohesion is one of the changes and it also includes and objective to try and ensure that we can continue to keep schools open and educating our young people so we've we've got the an strategy in place we've also developed as a risk register that looks all of the potential things that might happen in the second wave and what we need to try to mitigate and that helps us with our planning and then in terms of planning for the response we've got the first thing we try and do is obviously prevents an outbreak or at least reduce the impact of the outbreak so public health the got some quite detail plans they've got a London outbreak plan and then we've got our own Lewisham outbreak plan but we do accept that no despite the actually we might take in managing those outbreaks we are likely to see the second wave hitting his heart so we need to look at how we maintain our critical services we did that during the first wave well we're in a good position to do that again but it is highly likely will need support those with staffed where we have got absences and last time you will recall we also provided a range of specialist services things and shielding emergency provision of PP and so on and we will have to stand those services up again we believe so when preparing for that the last time we supported those specialist services and critical services with volunteers taken from elsewhere in the Council from non critical areas are we proposing to do something similar but this time rather than looking for volunteers and with we've created the covert action Team and what will be doing there is re deploying staff from non critical areas to those COVID to the Cohmad action Team and getting them ready so that they can respond so this week with already identified 35 people that will be churning up to do the local test and trace work to further bolster the NHS approach on track and trace so that's our covert action Team and the same be taken the staff from the non critical service areas we also do as we look at a whole range of data just to see what's happening so we can Land for what's coming at us down the road we've reviewed that data we'd based on a lunch set of data that we have to that we have to provide and with we're doing that and then we been testing that our plans work so this month we took part in a full day exercise with our Southee's Barra colleagues to test a strategic response to an outbreak of Cove in that crossed the borough boundaries that when where we had about 15 key learning points out of that that we built into our plans and most have been testing our outbreak plans but actually we're using those outbreak plans for real now then I think the final thing to mention around I responses that staff support and we're very aware of so far style in some of our staff in very difficult front line roles so we are supporting them with a range of help from coaching mental health first aid well being development training so and so we make sure that they are looked after as well think those are the key points in the report that we like to highlight
extract from Ken
have become so we how
they will bear with me each message covers the previous one OK so we've got countless card they within Millbank as the first three questions so Councillor Carter please
thank you Chair and Councillor Patrick card chair of public accounts Committee and thanks very much Ralph and and Kim I've got a question the relates to care homes and if you follow the link from paragraph 6 point 7 2 are outbreak prevention and control plan
and then follow the link in that to Pennac's to go of Lewisham's approach to care home support during COVID-19 you you know just how we're supporting care homes it says
care homes of quarantine patients discharged from hospital who are COVID-19 positive
and then it discusses problems with this because there are some problems with that and then says that over the next phase this was probably written around me time I think commissioners and colleagues from CCG and Health will review these measures jointly with care homes as well some wonders this review taken place what's the current position and I'm concerned because I'd seen coverage on you know news programme about
contract with care homes I think in the Manchester area which implied that they were they were effectively forced to take COVID-19 positive patients back into their care home so I just wondered if if you know that reviews taken place of of what we did the first time and how it's been dealt within in Lewisham thank you Chair thanked part at a say Kevin fight it handed to them
sliding away to let the little Councillors then do that questions Kevin and will retake Gaga's responses today this place
sorry Chair of having trouble on you to my suffer so after declare an interest in relation to this first question which I declare before which is that I am a Trustee of voluntary services Lewisham
my question is around how we are working with the organisations that had supported us previously around the volunteering response because I know that the first time round the staff and volunteers there had to be very reactive and like work work very hard to kind of like reactors situation of it went so I'm just wondering how much they are being brought into common current conversations and know when they might be asked to come react again that was my first question and the second one is
in a report a little while ago we had an a helpful lift the things that could have been done better the first time round acknowledging that our response was very good I would be interested in seeing how our planning for the second wave of differs from the first time and the ways in which where implementing the lessons learned of the things that didn't go as well thank you
thank Sophie and then for this tranche gap comes from Millbank place
thank you Chair Councillor John Milbank and the Chair of the majority Group Councillor Davies actually raised both in my points Chair so I will repeat it again and I think I should also declare an interest in terms been involved with Lewisham local thank you thanks John well out for Elba to air officers at the canal those first questions please thank you chose to light them start with the answers and can can filly if I have missed anything so in terms of the care homes
yeah that was written about your right is huge amount of work on on in terms of establishing processes and procedures to protect those in care homes and we monitor them very carefully and public Health have done a lot of work with them and are doing a lot of work now to manage outbreaks Nat area I think it's fair to say we I mean it still an area of concern and some of those outbreak plans do with complex settings and care homes as one of those complex settings to have been doing a lot of exercising their as well
but we have got some concerns around the testing delays because particularly for the staff and the people working in in knows care homes to really important that we make sure that they are a positive case themselves and particularly because some of them could be asymptomatic so and so that's an ongoing piece I'm afraid Catherine will have a lot more detail and I do I've just got the overview of what's happened with care homes and we have got capacity in at the moment and of see close links with the hospitals to make sure any discharges are dealt with appropriately in terms of Councillor Davis's around the Lucian local yeah I mean I think the situation with this is I think we're all having to be quite reactive because it is all happening very very quickly by certainly take your point in terms of keeping Lucian local and the other VSO's that were absolutely m in the first wave on board as much as we can with how things developing and certainly one of the areas we are working up again is shielding which we sort of put on pause when that came to an end in August but getting very to stand that back up and will be hoping that we get a that incredible support we had from them first time man's help us through that and in terms of lessons learnt yes you're right we had a lot of lessons learned and ones that spring to mind are first of all around communications so it took a while to get our communications right first time round I think really really strong position now with our communications arrangements going forward we got a good team in place and we've been really proactive with the communications supporting government messaging but having our own local messaging particularly around things like the re-opening up of the hospitality over the summer but low to those of other things and there's not a messaging going out all the time from them and I meet a daily with them just a girl over those plans for the day and for the week and then as a gold management team overseeing this we look at the communications raged so communications won the lessons we learn
I mentioned we've changed our volunteering scheme into more avert deployment of staff from non critical areas that was a lesson learned their lesson we learned was that whilst it worked well we were very reliant on people's goodwill and we were getting and we were having to recruit not more volunteers people could only do bits and pieces it got quite Messi to organise so having those deployed staff in those areas is one of the lessons we've learned me hope nettle go a lot slew the and then we lend some lessons around the I T in terms of our staff being equipped so they could work from home and were in a much stronger position now with staff work from in in fact we we should have kept staff out of the of this all the way through this as far as possible so he can
partly protect the services from staff getting cosy themselves keep the officers' clear for those people who do have to come in and that's put it in a good position for for the second wave and I don't know whether Kim was to Alan anything to what I've said if she's if she's connecting OK
I'm here I got nothing to add to that request
thanks route before I call the next tranche would be Councillor Campbell coring and Bernard in that order air Councillor card would like to just clarify something with the right thank Pat fat thanks Cher yes you are very reassuring the health but
I wasn't clear and if if Catherine's on the core maybe she can commence
what is the local policy now and discharging patients so packed covert positive from hospital into care homes
is that
it clearly the first time we were doing it where we felt that the Care Home could properly isolate them but then this difficulties with staff moving around the care home in that sort of thing it says in the in the papers I've read side and said it was we were going to review it now before the second wave really so I'm just wondering what is you weren't clear about what the policy is if you may be don't know but someone else on the core might yet I'm I'm sorry I'd I don't know the detail of it I think that's something we could come back to you with the if it's then we can get a note not up and circulated to just to respond to one that I'm I'm confident it's been looked at and I know Catherine's been doing a huge amount of work on this but I'm afraid I don't know the details so that thank Pat thanks to Alan I won't go to suggest out Jack that capitalism under College's fame air so I was gonna suggested if you could pass this on to Catherine and asked her to a compact directly to pan put a copy of sane and part has any use this opportunity to hold any particular aspects that he wants to make sure he gets the answers for that I'd suggest that them be sends them directly to Catherine to air if that's OK am we've now got Councillor Campbell
and I'm convinced that you get Campbell and I am the Chair Safer and stronger Committee my question is around finances the cost of Kofi it has been incredibly high and I'm just wondering what the financial impact will be or the ramifications will be on our financial pressures in the second wave
what sort of demand do you expect on our finances and are there any Is there any government support for the second wave
the fact that Juliet that more complicated
Councillor Liam current share of sustainable development scrutiny for the no thanks very much for the report appreciate that
are a Councillor Collins has asked most of my questions on care house so this one aspect I'd like answered an and defect that does link into a wider question is I'm looking at report and it could be that I am not alert enough of miss something but I'm just looking for the matrix of how air coping with a covert 19 so some facts and figures
what were the what the care home deaths if any how do they compare from the beginning and over the months and compare with other boroughs I know that's not always fair comparison Kisby explained a this depends how many care homes in each Pyrah VAT and I suppose then the metric for me would be how are we how do we compare with ourselves months ago and what's the protection and also on on anything else in the in our dealings with COVID now can we have some facts and figures about how they're coping thank you
actually him and we have Councillor Bernard please
yes I live in a German is gone through a bit abandoned son them I'm the Chair of Housing Select Committee
My question is around the preparedness of second wave on the planning or second wave we know and the first wave that to a black Asian and minority ethnic was disproportionately affected by this are like are not what are the plans
or what have you plans to make sure that this does not repeat as Norrie Carioca
especially for specifically for the black people
thanks data and if colleagues don't mind anecdote any the hand for allocates opportunity that question at three questions two of them being unasked already by Councillor empanada Councillor Campbell air but me be third question was just just to query really and again I hope it's been spent over my apologies books if it came to a lockdown in London in particular Buress is it actually feasible shown locked down a London borough
or would it have to be on a larger level is an option to lock down the borehole looking at whether we that we wait and we get to this stage and we locked down London or when I say lockdown obviously I mean increased measures of various various tapes so just to clean really so over the route thank self
I I'll come in first in that's all right Chair just on the that's my cause nerve finance question then your question about locked down so rudely financial implications set out in the report at 7 but your question Councillor Campbell is is very person it and what we are doing is is modelling
the potential costs of a second wave based on what we want it cost us in the first wave so shielding for example you know how much per week did it cost us for shielding how much per week did it cost us in loss of revenue or from parking how much per week to food delivery and so on and so on so we are looking to model those costs so that we can understand the potential impact and then of course that that lobbying with the hard facts of what some those costs might be or what we might have to stop doing if we if we don't have any unable to us to universal and additional pieces of work that we did during the the first player and that the lockdown question Councillor Brown well yes there there's a six million dollar question and
just to clarify I was laughing I was laughing domestic that come in from a council colleague was comes early with a question not what you were seen apologies carrier
so I I think the intention is that London moves as one city and any further interventions any further measures are done on a city wide basis rather than a borough by borough bases because it would be very difficult to manage in force and and intervene if it was done on the borough by borough basis not least because typically London someone might live in one borough had children going to school in another borough and work in a different borough so you're trying to untangle that would be very difficult but I think there's also some intentions over the coming days to and simplify the intervention measures and what the measures are each level so innovative move from a national concerned to an area of intervention is trying to clarify what the rules are that would apply each one of those those escalation for its cause I think that there is some confusion and bad messaging and mixing of households in household that not empower person and and so on for I think there is some national tents trying to clarify that though and hopefully that help over to Ralph
thanks can so until the Councillor Cameron's question around metrics and we have got a a range of data that that were using to measure things and that they should go from cover the whole whole range so I mean if you'd like to say what metrics you'd like are more than happy to share those
the number of deaths got mentioned so of the top of my head I think the total number of deaths now is to 164 in the borough that's based on our Registration Service Data ONS data unsightly behind that so could be slightly different
up until last Friday we'd had no death since the 8th July but since Friday we had a death on Friday and we had a further death yesterday so to in recent days we are reviewing hospital data on the number of admissions the number of people going into intensive care we unconventionally infection rates are reviewing those have to say that we have to be careful with some of the date of because than the testing particularly we're concerned that because that's testing day that the availability of testing has been restricted it doesn't present the full picture and we actually believe the infection rates of probably a lot higher than the 20 point warned that it was showing today nevertheless there is even though that we've got those issues it is still not would trend around those infection rates and just from the number of outbreaks we're seeing and dealing with in terms of outbreaks in schools where we are having to close down bottles and forms to prevent the spread of that in our own workforce and and I mentions in complex areas like care homes that we're seeing outbreaks so all of those metrics are showing the second wave has now got a grip on is increasing and hence are response to it or not this lower than those by the day to so if there is particular deity Laxey are more than happy to share that
in terms of Councillor Bernard question absolutely in terms of being very aware of the impact these have on this covert has optically communities and BAME community in particular so I mentioned we got a very strong communications campaign that is under way that's trying to get the right messages out to the right people how to protect yourself from Coburn the measures to take I don't know if you're aware we've got now got come into Champions when recruiting to and we're actually before call out to councillors to join that
they are daily to get trusted people into the community providing messages and that again is how to protect yourself from Code bids and then what do if somebody has coving you know in terms of self-isolation and so on and then in terms of our own workforce we are very cautious there about our workforce and so we've adapted our risk assessments to take covert into account and particularly staff who are on the front line every one of those will have had a risk assessment conducted to make sure that we are not putting them at any unnecessary risk and that the right measures are in place to keep them as safe as we can we also just trying to build into all of our planning the intended just to make sure we've got the call it is cupboard so it's not an afterthought would is actually integral toward the planning and that will make sure that we haven't missed anything there
thanks route before I asked for three final contributions from Councillors
cod Campbell and Curran added were read out admitted that that of solar 6th and can we have data paper about the current data be provided in future reports Dathan hospital admissions etc. what I would suggest is that we ask
is made through the Clerk of the Committee visit pal committee if Colly can have a thing of the data they wanted to be air included in future reports and rather than doing things individually if we go through the Clerk of the Committee and calculated and ensure that they're the information gathered will be in future reporting periods would be very happy to provide and came at what what we what we request now just before Jody that the text messages bear with me clarity cluttered clarity from him well Kim's got a handle before call Councillors Campbell
I all generally speak before came Juliet whereas the question forget my card
sorry thank you I'm it was system clarity on the question the I've asked so based on the response that came just gave to us
is came expecting the second wave to cost the same as much as first wave I wasn't clear on that and also is there any government support for second wave
actually if you can hold only for a moment became while they always will take Councillor cards for his comment and then Councillor current and ever come back to officers
thank you I'll be quick chair it was just on the question of testing you know we've had these problems recently in and that's why Ralph is is is emphasising that are infection rate might be higher than is currently being shown mean I know that people like top football clubs and City banks are testing their staff regularly and and and I just wondered is there any evidence that the sort of private sector large corporates doing testing is helpful to the country or is actually taking up capacity maybe we don't know and secondly the more important part the question is are we seeing signs now the our testing capacity is going up locally in response to the rising levels and London thank you and bad and Councillor currently thank you what I was I think might be easier if all the metrics are just published because we might miss things out if we don't know they're actually accused my reason for asking for this so that we can do our work Publius scrutiny councillors either
though what's going on and can see the figures whether they're going up down or around there will know what's happening I'm the second point or question was just a little bit of clarity or Ralph because I wasn't sure but just to be sure those figures you said third no death since July and to this week that refers to the general population or does that referred to count
at that refers to the general population and specifically covert deaths on thank you OK that actually before ask him and not the coming on the other other pilot just waiting add to from Councillor Campbell on the financial question government support and then differentials between now in future efforts second wage and what does that mean for our already pressured finances suggested to air finished off so Kim Ralph and over would like to pick up those questions first please I'll make a start turn that's right and apologies are not going to switch my camera it does seem to be impacting my connection so at sorry about that
apologies Councillor Campbell I didn't answer your your question and that the government and haven't said anything about further support at this stage explicitly they puts on pool when we mapping asked to do administer the self-isolation payments for certain categories of the population they are supporting us with the burdens of doing administration but haven't given ending any indication that further funds are forthcoming at all as to whether I think the subway will cost more the same or less that is a very difficult question then this is likely to last longer than the first wave and we're expecting this peak to be flatter but longer and go on until the springs so on that measure one could say it would cost more but if we are not doing the things that we did before so we're not doing shield anymore of we're not providing PB for care homes and if it were not doing ourselves things it might cost
less so it's a very difficult to give her own very precise answer to that one unafraid under the until to assure the panel that we aren't a monitoring all the spend with the same diligence that we have been up to this point we are still making regular monthly returns to and make the LG and there is a of a funding gap across London currently 1 point for illion pounds around overt of
though that that is only likely to increase I would imagine and chemical the question on that the data what I was going to say is that I do want to suggest that we can provide whatever data at all sorts of e level not already collect the I've might provide an endless things that were already collecting so that we flipped it once and use it doesn't time so if we come back to the Panel with the measures the metrics that are used to provide you back in the early days in and anything else that we collecting it with it would be useful I think that would be helpful for for being most efficient and effective use of everyone's claim on that raft and Comac on any other points I would sorry the question on WhatsApp during 2 our ready pressures finances well it's keeping the pressure on and we're in a very difficult position of having to the setter a budget for next year one we're not really sure what the level of funding and support that we going to get from the government for Cody's or indeed what the actual costs are covert are going to be so it's some very difficult veritable fight balancing oblongs really at the moment
thanks for nothing just come back on that last question about the private testing as far as I'm aware that it's reliable figures used for more routine testing than anything and the issue with that's what testing is or any testing really once you've had your test it will tell you that you got to do not but five minutes later you could actually catch Coburn so it's only good at the point the test is taken and so the messaging out to everybody there's not earner Professional Sports Club about a do spores is if you've got sentence you must get tested and isolated and those close contacts around you must isolate for 14 days as well where you are a positive case and big because you know you might not have it on Monday but you could have it the next straight after the Test series that is a difficult situation we are beginning to see is turning the corner on the availability of test so we do think there is capacity back in the lab system and we are beginning to see an increase in Tests now available but it's not right yet I think we probably got another couple of weeks before they're able to meet the full demand as we're seeing it now and that demand might be much greater in a couple of weeks time so we might not be out of the woods yet and testing adjust to come in their own testing as well the aim is to have 30 Estyn sites operational across 25 boroughs by the middle of October and to have 75 local testing sites across London by November so there certainly ramping up to the local provision as as well as and all the other access routes at the now
thanks came plank throughout I will move on to the next item now which is the hybrid report Appendix stair to the man report I'll call on silly Nantmel hair there too aware as well if educated reduced in size to a apologies
well it when the first week to introduce that report there will only took the questions
thank you Chairman I am cinema here on the Assistant Chief Executive I'm presenting the hybrid Appendix to the Code updates that you've received the ceiling in your recall at the last meeting you had a briefing note provided around them initial thinking around hyping meetings
this paper gives you a further overview of some of the work officers have been doing over the last month to explore the opportunities and potential about hybrid meetings as as referred him of just highlighted so well things have moved on a little bit in terms of the ability and likelihood of us wanting to host hybrid meetings at the current time with a second wave upon us however it still provided you some of the work that officers are doing the intention from the officer perspective is to explore the technical and practical logistical requirements that we would need to have to continue to of a hybrid meetings in the future and that is outlined in the paper for you the main points to flag is that we're not looking to open the Civic Suite and to open up her to members of the public and councillors and officers on meeting in person in in a in a standard meeting our hybrid meeting this side of March where we currently out with them second wave oversee will review that as we go on so this paper sets out that in the meantime officers will start to look at the technical requirements for hybrid meetings and and develop those
and in the meantime it also gives some short term options around what we've caught a virtual Plas meetings in terms of the use of Laurence House if there on the quiet routes for Councillors in small number to be in the same place whilst Irma holding a meeting but right we're getting more detail on that chair and am happy to take any questions that Members might have
thanks to deliver DUP member Sir have any questions comments or point to the wish to make on this report
it's well we might be in a an easy one for you tonight
Deputy Assistant Deputy Assistant Surrey Chief Executive 52 Executive all I say that as Chair it's my yeah job communities kind of moments and I basically am
as I think you've accepted in India in production would visually one to something we feel will be beneficial you understand the immediate situation of course in it having has to be done in that context but what were happy with the detail of the report and shows that you know it's a serious issue that will be looked into and would like to be kept up to date is before long because as I say this would be a good thing to put into practice if there are no other comments or questions well indeed well of does shows you when it reports are put together comprehensively perhaps all the questions already answered but don't bet on it for future meetings of course though thank you as Selina
thank you on that basis

5 Key Decision Plan

we will now move on to it would I suspect with we colleagues item 5 which is a key decision plan as you see in he added the decisions Key decision for such out for future expectations with the man cabinet and kept flighting it will urge their addressed this item and answered questions as Clarke the Committee
has put the briefings on the items are coming up soon so as any questions on any of the items this would be the time to do it Kevin to one or raise any points before open up the colleagues
I don't believe so so that he questions to cabinet Annie points are on an underside him I can ekes

6 Decisions Made by Mayor on 16 September 2020 - open session

I don't believe there is once again thank you Kevin we move on to Item 6 decisions made by man cabinet open session
this is the revised Statement of Community involvement you and COVID-19 pandemic costs journey and here we have a Emma towback those a director planning I will be addressing the site and from officers for for live from of a sentence I've asked for this item to be looked at again on the reasons I've asked for this item as I followed the the presentation of this item at Mount cabinet and the presentation did refer to amenity societies and certain points that that in communication with the been decide is to come up with the decision and recommended demand cabinet I believe a number that councillors receive letters fair one unnamed male to e-mails signed by all amenity societies in the borough and raising concerns at with the the decision being taken by the Mayor and Cabinet so what I would like to do is to give the opportunity to air
Emma as the director in this case so specifically addresses those concerned to just highlight some and all councillors have already ceded and women as as I had seen the e-mails came in a on point for CHAS the request for meetings on a regular basis with officers to try and discuss applications etc. planning issues coming up air to ensure that yeah worked on it advances are not better than worked on afterwards so we can try and see if we can come to a compromise a land one of the I am her colleague on that aspect
a point that was raised to me by a local resident which is as part of the procedures were Chairs of Committees planning committees and meet with officers to decide whether to put an item to a full planning committee and then that decision is notified whether it's it to Council not it would be good for all when the publication of the decision is made to have a rationale behind it so that kind of change that would help members of the public and being decided is understand the rationale why decisions being made if it's been made without representations at least explain why that decision can him back conclusion was decided so that's why I raised it ever Emma would like to wear Kick Off I'd be very happy and if there's any colleagues who aware when it come in during the discussion here please please let me know just before a scammer I'm just checking already got comes will do so I'll say your your hand Councillor
Emma please
and thank you Chair and thank you for the opportunity and for us to actually address the letter and the joint letter from amenity societies I mean I think how on a start by by saying in an amenity societies and I wasn't groups and do have an important role and I understand their their concerns I didn't think when when I started in Lewisham that we would ever find ourselves making decisions during the middle of a global pandemic not being able to me in in person and I just want to assure Members and our amenity societies that when we've looked at the measures that we believe and we need in order to keep us being able to make decisions when we have an less resources and we're finding that our Committees of virtual Committees are taking longer and require much more officer support that we have been looking at the minimum level that we think we should we should do to keep those decisions going so
and the these these measures still recognise that Amity societies have an important role and an objection from an amenity society will automatically mean any chairs review meeting and I think that there is an some fear and some concerns in some of the letters from amenity societies that I've that I've seen that this is decision making behind behind closed doors what this is about is deciding that whether given the issues a decision can be made by an officer a senior officer so it's no again it's it's not the actual case officer making a decision it always goes to a more senior officer as part of our delegated process or whether the issues are significant enough that they weren't going to to Planning Committee so I know that there are concerns that an these measures put our heritage at risk I can't tell you how dedicated and passionate group of planning officers you have who I am incredibly proud of the hard work they they do we care about the borough a number of us have been here for for a number of years and a number of us live locally as well we do care we still make decisions in accordance with our policies it's not getting away from the fact that decisions planning decisions are difficult and some of them are balanced and not everyone is going to be happy with the outcome but we do always have a report there that where something has been subject to a Chairs review meeting gives that outline and what I'm happy to do is look at how we can make that more transparent because I don't want people to be left with the impression that we're trying to do planning behind closed doors and planning is very visible and we want it to be to be democratic
I am now I think that Ralph has giving you an and Kim quite a he now stock overview of us going into a second wave of officers working from home until at least March and thinking about how we support deployment and so I think that
you know we reached that conclusion that we we felt we needed these measures as case numbers have been recovering so while the measures have and helped us with our backlog what we are seeing you know as of today we have over 100 cases in the pipeline waiting to be validated which will
which will become planning applications and around 600 cases the officers are actively working on as of today some of those include and pre-app beauty planners and not everything that would go to Committee I think it's also worth noting that
at the present time we we do have one of the lowest levels of of delegation across London
so these measures which again I I want to assure you I'll I'll temporary measures
you know that it's not a dramatic move to one of two another Bonner's level of you know cut off for when things go to Committee it is about raising the threshold marginally and we have seen that I think at the time of writing the report 26 cases had gone to a case review meeting and I believe something like 14 cases had been affected by the change in threshold between 3 m so again to put that into context of those numbers at the moment live applications that officers are dealing
don't take those officer decisions seriously
so I mean I hope that keeps you a good no a reasonable overview and as always I'm happy to take any questions vice Emma arches put a question to you in the Arctic councils will Dune Councillor Bill by Councillor sober Councillor Pachube will be called as well as or if his Patient A will ever be called less of a question than a that amusing perhaps amused when you say you say that you find out vicious temporary
recorded measures that I suppose is also occur Cern is that it's not just about covert matches budgetary issues obviously we know the situation when it corvid measure then that seems to have a faint 8 potentially dear to the end if it's budgetary issues where the Council has gone as in as we know are going to be facing very very serious financial situation without even knowing the full extent as accomplices you came and Juliet as we heard we don't really naughty it a lot of gases and physical and going to give us money all these unknowns so if these changes are based on a budget issue than LATS begs the question the Wilby is not 10 very at its permanent at less a question than the nurse an orca appear to be made to me so if we can accomplish Muldoon than Millbank than solar please Cha an unearthly welcome the revisions to the CSR Siaya and and Members may know that we have for Planning Committees in Lewisham more than many other boroughs and uneven sideways on the Paris our less democratic than Lewisham
there is just one point I will make I could talk on I won't I make one point which is that in an east London Borough there threshold for a matter to go to committee is 20 objectors however however I also have the other way round which is as if an officer is minded to refuse an application 20 20 supporters can call it before Committee and I wonder whether that had been considered
thank you John M
customer bankers it thank you Chair yeah I just wanted to drop attention on page 79 item 9 point 1 bullet point 4 where we talk about invitations to planning committees and other Communications at sorry herself lost it makes it explicit that people wishing to speak at planning permit his willing to Reg to speak in advance and to estimate when copies of their speeches I just wanted to ask him if she would look at the wording of that again I can understand the reasons why that will be but I think the term speeches sounds very formal if Members the public coming along as I just said from a cut of democracy equality pointed to view or if that could that work could be looked at perhaps it should be key points all contributions or something like that so we don't put people thank you Chair fags Joe at John and they're the last one in this tragic culture Sauber
thank you Chair I would like to reassure Emma that are on particularly appreciative of largest the hard work of your planning offices but of the of their wisdom and their knowledge the local knowledge
it nevertheless does remain the case that there are times when elected members do not always share the the conclusions of Planning officers despite the respect with which we hold them and their professional backgrounds and it is also sometimes a case that members do not share the view of the chair even though we have elected those individuals Chair our Committees and therefore I think our deference to them you know cannot cannot be disputed I do take on board Councillor Muldoon's point of comparing how much involvement there is in this borough compared to other boroughs
the reason I wanted to speak to this item is that something that distinguishes Lusia from other boroughs was very vivid part of our manifesto and and it's now a very sought a key part of our corporate strategy and I quite we commit to do everything in everything we do we will seek to enable and empower residents and then there's a list of of sort of manifestations of that that includes
to increase public involvement in decision making out what I take from this because this is these are the commitments on which I was elected are I feel that lotion has a therefore greater onus to to making sure that we balance between efficiency and we'd balance between budget we also have to balance this responsibility that we've declared and I would just like to echo Councillor Brown I think one of the reassurances that's a practical one might be to to agree to add a little bit of detail so that those case reviews with the Chair yeah the rationale can be understood and then I think a lot of the of that fear of you know what they are saying behind closed doors we'll go away because in fact what what's being said is probably it's actually quite
it's quite sort of harmless
examinations of planning law and planned planning and planning policy but I would also hope that
again as sort of been intimated before that when we come out of the pandemic that we we don't drift into a system that we have not had the opportunity to fully review because something that works during one period doesn't Surrey mean it's ideal you note for the future and it may be that when we come out of the pandemic we don't return to the previous system and we end up with something that's neither our current one or the past 1 but as long as we are committed to to having a sort of a big picture review of how do we want to handle that the vomit of the public and of elected members in future planning laws that takes place are I'm happy to you know to endorses to pressures
actually there were many comments there from his alpha and those questions and punch please
and no thank you and thank you Councillor Sauber feel your words about officers I very much very much appreciate that I think the the point about speech saying there I think then Councillor Millbank completely take that that's a really helpful point and certainly something that we can that we can look to and to change and I quite like your suggest your suggestion of contributions I'm fully gonna steal that cause I I'm quite like that so yes
I think that the Councillor Muldoon's point around treating it the opposite way round although it's not in the scheme of Delegation we actually do that because I think it it's the right thing to do and it's it's fair and I think we eat rare that we get a huge amount of support for for any scheme and human nature is that you're you're more likely to raise your concerns rather than you're support but where we have had those occasions and officers have been minded to refuse we have still referred to those two to Planning Committee for a decision so there are obviously the protections still there for Councillor call-in so any Councillor Call in and a decision call that to committee and then that doesn't go past Chairs review that goes straight to committee and then there is also just the judgement of officers that sometimes we think even know there's not much interest in the case and people we should be interested in it doesn't it doesn't happen it doesn't happen often but we do have those those safeguards in their I think just to address Chair your points and that of Councillors all bar about this becoming a permanent way of working because of the budget and we we end up drifting drifting into that we are still committed to doing the work and for the Local democracy review which was looking at the the planning process and public engagement and in that so I think that some actually Councillor Davis and myself are catching up on Thursday to talk about how we bring that forward I think that what I would have liked to have done is be able to progress that work during the initial three month period and resource flies we just weren't with just one there even the officers who were working where doing so alongside caring commitments I think over the next six months I am very very aware that we need to make progress on that local democracy review and we we want to do that and that I'm not seeing that as part of as part of this same piece of work these are measures because of covert and but you are right that one of the things we have to look out is our is our Budget going forward and that is going to inevitably have noticeable impacts on planning and what we're what we're able to do I would be this leading you if I if I if I said otherwise but public participation and democracy transparency and accountability RV we're gonna be absolute key to us and we don't want to erode public or member confidence in in the planning system in notion so we're going to do everything that we can to to balance the books and give you a planning service that you deserve thanks
what will do now is I'm going to Gordon Councillor Davis who wanted to comment as appropriate after you just be name-dropping and churches gonna at in and we're air and noise comments and then Councillor Bell the cabinet member wants to clarify a point will be helpful any clarification from Councillor Bell are always helpful so I'll ask him to comment and stir Sophie and then Councillor Boshell once to ask me the Chair ever on the rationale for the decision that I mentioned and I'll ask for Councillor pursue to comment at that point so if we can go to Sophie please and thank you again and this will be the last season with the last three air question thank you I'll be quick as I found this made the point that I was determined gates make which was to remind members of the work of their liquid mercury working group is still ongoing and that was very much be subject to extensive scrutiny by Members so that discussion that Luke was asking for will very much be taking place in times of like how we make our longer term decisions in relation to flooding
thanks Sophie and poorly there if you could introduce herself when you come on stream please here somewhere so I'm poor will complement the housing and planning I think I'm as presented all the information I would just clarify around the fact that this is a temporary measure again but because of the
come situation which unfortunately now go into a second wave any changes resourcing wise will go through the appropriate channels but we are in a dire situation financially and there will be changes moving forward and we don't Mistley people on that basis that these are specifically around covert not on anything else but we do need to look at how we do things with appearing to moving forward and Emma and the planning department are very clear that we do development with the local community not against the massing that's important message that we that we put out there and these are not changes that we don't want that not value democracy because democracy is absolutely vital our community is absolutely vital and I value the work of the Telegraph Hill Conservation Society for example as do Joan and Luke and I think it's really important to stress that but we do need to look at how we are dealing with a covert situation and that's what this report is really around and I welcome the discussion from business Panel because I always like coming to have those discussions because you're very thorough and detailing in the question you make
how can I get you nowhere Councillor A but we do appreciate your comments and joking apart we want to give opportunity for discussions along these lanes to give you the opportunity other colleagues to address the public's concerns are rather as individuals or amenity societies etc anything it's important to appreciate when people come along and we have these discussions in its it all for the best for the Borough that were trying to achieve and we understand that so sorry and then Councillor Fisher your final comment on this item please for their their John
yes yes I am Chair get Hermeler coming in loud and clear it won't be down and the kind of figure being to confirm to the computers study nothing
that only a virtual computer and only one yes I am very clear that Sir I and all of us were elected on the same manifestos Councillor Sauber the 1 and and particularly the bit about transparency of decision making and that's that's always something thus pretty near the top of my mind that that that there was a lot of work went into the process of devising this it bit this this cheers review process part of the VSC obviously it was indeed something that we made up as we went along because we had to and we had a reason a relatively short timescale within which to do it but as a lot of work went into it both by Emma and by several of her other officers and and also by the four of us who are failing Committee Chairs and so I'm sorry I forgot to introduce myself and Councillor John patchy one share of one of the the for Lewisham Fleming committees and that that there was a misconception which I think even some of us suffered from while we in the process of devising and documenting what this Chair review process was and and that was the we were are going to be a sort of one man committee once like one person Committee 1 Councillor committee making decisions on our own about individual family applications and that's absolutely not the case and I remember pulling up that officers and other committee chairs in those discussions and reminding them that that wasn't the case what what we and I think
her Councillor Sauber in what he said earlier was was possibly suffering from the same misconception and because the review meetings I can't RM Emma probably has clocked up how many of the my done personally myself apart from the practice ones I it's at least two and
what we've done there is absolutely not have a discussion about planning principles policies the consideration on which we try to make decisions about whether an application that was I are on the borders between having a high level of public interest or amenity society interest but it should automatically go to committee
and or should have a a delegated decision may by officers is is absolutely not about its planning merits so one of the things we took out the information we being given was the planning officer telling us what their recommendation was going to be because we absolutely don't want to know that at that point and we don't want to pre-judge whatever decisions may whether it's made by officers or by a committee of Members so the basis on which we we were trying to make our decision was the level of public interest and the later public interest and the reason that your introductory remarks Spa me to want to ask a question of there is
yes I think it is perfectly reasonable to give full reasons for why we like Grant a planning application or my why being wet refuse a planning application as the Council
whoever is actually made by he's a bit more difficult to give the reasons why we may that judgement because we're councillors enough planning officers and not planning professionals why we make the judgement we do in each case and sometimes really quickly sometimes I I think it it's blindingly obvious yes this one should be discussed by Committee because of
various complexities but it would take considerably longer I think to justify that in the sort of rational detail way that we give reasons for making a planning decision so I think the Council as a whole Richard as it reaches hidden that we've got to justify that then fine
but I we're not trying to give reasons for approving of any allegation or refusing and as I think somebody somebody already mentioned earlier that there is a loophole in all of this ultimately if amenity sites Society objects for
that still doesn't take an application over the threshold then there is what we've turned the Councillor Cooley although I think we should give it another name and I've said so to Emma but no these come up with a better one yet we there's the Councillor Cook because it it confuses it with the process of cool into Cabinet with which you're familiar course
but there is always the option for any elected Councillor to do that so my suggestion has always been I've exercise this for myself as a ward councillor many a time in in my time but the if if Lemina society or enough residence this side that they are not getting a fair hearing and then all they have to do is contact one of there ever ready to listen ward councillors who can exercise that that option and that completely bypasses us and and ensures that it will go so Committee Letterkenny will cap do that do do that too often than they money held to out but that's a very different matter thanks drunk and I would appreciate it comes to looking for look to come back in the and pine share honourable combatively pungent Munster if I were happy that them we've edge or ponds and impact on points from and attachments residents etc and will run as listened and the pungent raised and we look forward to whatever pertaining compact considered in conjunction with Janet planning as you go along and in conjunction when along a gym with their democracy working group so I'm closes item thanks to all those contributing concern

7 Decision by Executive Director for Community Services on 17 September 2020

it was a pleasure when they are going to go to the police can bear with me when I switched Greens we have item 7 decision Executive Director of Community Services

8 Work Programmes: Overview and Scrutiny Select Committees 2020 - 21

and this was an item that was the main public but it's not an actor not we've looked so discussing on this this meeting so and go stretcher 8 an IT which is the work programmes and shouted deal had of scrutiny and will he this of on this item please thank you shown it
I thank you Chair
the six Select Committees have now all had their first meeting of this municipal year and discussed and agreed their draft work programmes business panel to consider and these are appended to the report before you tonight
I think it is worth noting that each Select Committee will only have four meetings this year due to the late start caused by the suspension as standard scrutiny during initial lockdown and they've had to prioritise I think that the proposed work programmes present a broad varied programme scrutiny over the next few months and they are focused on key policy issues and the parties of that Committee members so I'd like to invite the Panel to review and approve the proposed contents of the sixth annual work programmes and caused the Select Committee Chairs may want to say a bit more about their proposed programmes before the Panel makes its decision and he had shown it the work programmes have been set I could had been met in the papers functional had a look at what the details August you the Chair doors of specific Committees and legacy the first message is from comfortable doing checks and healthier communities
soldiers continue this opportunity to highlight any points shall aspects of the may wish Councillor Muldoon there's some jogging Charlie Elphicke slick committee and I just to highlight a couple of points foot of people have contacted me about and and and and the position appeared on November meeting of the healthier Communities Select Committee which is an offender the 11th I believe and forceful it's about the Birmingham illusion African Caribbean health inequalities Review which is a a joint piece of work being done on the academic auspices of University of Birmingham and quite a few people ask me about the governance and the
I academic overview arrangements of this projects and and coffee people ask me how they go home you advise report how they could get on the academic board as our to point them in the the right direction but we have decided that as well as the Advisory Board as well as the academic board at we should also look at it at helping commuter Select Committee certainly to review the scope of it at an early stage so that it will be doing in November the second item our which is in November is about the pathology contract again many people contact me about this and this has been discussed at the south-east London Joint Health Overview and Scrutiny's at Committee as well which is the current from the current and contract for pathology services at some of the hospitals and is up for review and up 3 letting and King's and Guys have come to an arrangement with a private sector provider to set up an organisation and the and the
our clinical commissioning group the Saturdays and 1 decided shortly after cut off for dispatch for last week's Committee meeting to award and the G P pathology services at to this new body so that is going to be discussed because at the moment GP services and are dealt with by Lewisham and Greenwich at the Woolage site and the I have asked questions will all be revealed in some detail and I shall be much questioning on November the 11th so at the moment and our people have been asked me have the recent problems with pathology services at B and Lucian Grainge Trust being good new contract fiancee's now because the new contract doesn't exist yet these these are local difficulties have been just local operational difficulties as they just they have been local operational difficulties so members of the public feelers the press or Members' business will want to know more come along on the vengeful and Co John and Alison Kelly may have see nethers been raised by the Save Lewisham Hospital campaign which we all know them do any other Chairs of any committees one make any comments or points and not seeing any at the state or case or nuts case we will call chervil or sorry before though that next shall not met it again thank you Charlotte for your contribution now so we go to them
the next item of decisions made by men cabinet there's an HMO on the Leisure Management arrangements in this split into two parts we have a part 1 which is in the public Edelman and one as a Potter which exclude the press and public
please bear with me colleagues I can become a backup sole it'll be presented Bageant's Les so as suggested jingles the high taken of June to highlight any points within Part 1
and then we take questions from any colleagues on that
out of the report and then before we go into the second part so are you that James

13 Leisure Management Arrangements - Part 1

I am I raised I'll just unit yourself in a few will make any more than we do the question and answers thank you very much yeah monumentally and Director of Communities Partnerships and leisure for the Council the part one core you have before you simply highlights the nature of the pool which is asking Mayor and Cabinet to agree the and termination agreement with fusion lifestyle for the ending of their current leisure management agreement
in order to transfer the contract to JLL as agreed by Mayor and Cabinet on the 12th of August 20 20 this is coming to you as pre scrutiny and I think the Chair for your flexibility in allowing me to bring this report to you in it in this way I will give some background to that now and further background in in the part 2 close session just to stay from the point of the issuing of the termination on the 5th of August we've had 40 business days to agree determination deal that we are bringing to Mayor and Cabinet on the 7th of August and borough for a range of reasons which I can explain in more detail in in the closed session and it it has been a very lengthy process lots of backwards and forwards and we have just reached the point of bring reaching an agreement that we are comfortable to recommend to merit cabinet for for agreement and we have been advised that it is important that we make that agreement within those initial 40 days due to legal risk if we go beyond that and I can give more more details on that risk in Part II of the meeting
thanks change there any colleagues have any questions that would be suitable for the open session I'd like it at first I'm not seeing any air indications so on that basis thanks James if colleagues can bear with me a moment so
what I will do has asked the legal officer Stephanie to explain why their way will be asked to go into closed session Stephanie thank you Chair the reason that you'll be asked got close session is because that occasionally regulations and that the statute which requires that we deal with confidential matters in a confidential session in those requirements are tight those screw to the answer Mayor and Cabinet and so that's the reason
thank you Stephanie so on that basis I would like to thank members of the public and all those won't be remaining with us for the rest of that meeting and I would forbid enjoyed it to come back again
I will ask him fighting to ask the
technician so let us know when the webcast has ended thanks to everyone for joining us so far