Sustainable Development Select Committee - Thursday, 12th November 2020 at 7:00pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Sustainable Development Select Committee
Thursday, 12th November 2020 at 7:00pm 

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1 Minutes of the meeting held on 15 September 2020
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2 Declarations of interest
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4 Lower Sydenham and Bell Green vision study
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5 Budget cuts

OK thank you very much
just a start by saying welcome everybody to this on line Meeting of the Sustainable Development Scrutiny Committee I'll just read out a couple of notes about how we conduct these just to make them easier so a fact ask officers and anyone else attending if they curd or switch off the camera until the item or your items on the agenda or your been asked to speak how please keep microphone muted until you speak because the obviously background noise can affect us we have the check function so if you can
want to speak please type Q in that forest and then I will see you in order that you asked to speak I know if you get the step disconnected go back to the link that you were initially St and I should also fires members officers and people watching that the meeting is being webcast and a recording will be available on
the Council website now go to apologies and have already had one from Councillor Sophie Davis the Timothy's or any other apologies or anyone else have any apologies
apologies for lateness from Councillor S Dombrowski
OK
and Councillor Clarke is sending a message to see what that is in a minute but I presume says under that that's not them
no Susanna if you could if Ben committee members can keep their cameras on unless you feel that you've got to nip off somewhere that generally food keep it on a so any other apologies to any other Members have apologies for that Committee members now OK great stuff

1 Minutes of the meeting held on 15 September 2020

right the minutes of the meeting on the 15th of September has ever had a chance to look at those and can we declare those as a accurate record

2 Declarations of interest

and I think we'll have a show of hands because I can see you all so can every hands up if you think it's Sir an accurate record that sit Jos thank you all that Sir unanimous so until the next item restrictions of interest to anybody wants to declare any I items of interest personal interest in agenda as usual Councillor crap Sky yeah and just in case and psyching comes up at all I am a member closure situs OK noted thank you very much of course if you remember Harper for the meeting it's fine to say it then as well if Fir anybody remembers their interests

3 Responses from Mayor and Cabinet

right to the next item is responses from mayor and cabinet Our were here to note the response from the Mayor and Cabinet or an all submissions and referrals on flooding parks and open spaces and the local plane so does anybody else want to comment on those before we move on because it's largely for noting but here's a chance to get any or views on the record or anything like that I'm anyone well her cats across Sky and catslide Farani
just very quickly changes to note that I'm I really welcome the response to Mayor and Cabinet on the flooding issue and I look forward to seeing that on our work programme in some form or other I'm not sure that it needs to come to full committee but we at least we can get to speak to the Environment Agency at some point about especially about the and London Thames Barrier have very I'd very welcome much welcome that thank you OK or should know that because of the submission from the Committee the Hither Green railway sidings the drainage and that area which is going to be crucial to preventing flooding into the Green Lewisham is also now going to be considered in a flood management plan
or in cooperation with the Environment Agency
and liberia's Councillor Clarke that you have your hand up

4 Lower Sydenham and Bell Green vision study

but could I just ask you to remind you if you go queue in the Czech function because it's hard to fight to notice of what older people have asked to speak OK right sets respect from months lower the responses for the Mayor and Cabinet's next item on the agenda we won't be discussing that to we've got a Kevin Sheehan who's going to explain what has happened with that issue her thank you Kevin thank you Chair and some apologies to the Committee really tonight sheer volume of work that we're dealing with at the moment across the council has meant that this particular item it's not quite ready yet I think to come to the Committee it needs some further work by a particularly the senior officers of the Council so but I will commit to bringing it back to the Committee before it goes to the Mayor and Cabinet of of pushed it back or any further decision from the phone and American agenda later in the year maybe early next year so it gives the Committee time to come back and have a look at again but as you can imagine the council officers are working very hard at the moment and covert of late matters so that's partly why that delays could

5 Budget cuts

OK thank you very much as anybody have any questions for carrying on the item no OK thank you very much so now we go on to the rather painful process that we have to do a year and is of a permanent feature of Local government life is our budget cuts once again we have the Executive Director Housing Regeneration and public realm that Kevin
and he's going to perhaps give us a little bit of an intro to warm us up her and on your agenda it's item 6 pages first was pay day to one and then I'll tell you the page number I see as we go which I hope will be more helpful to Members OK erm coming could you just to give a cert introduction to the item please can yeah I think care Chair it's important to set some context to this item and a and as you say quite a painful item manner Committees or have got used to over the last decade a certain I think this year speak particularly challenging I just wanted to say a little bit about the kind of 19 response that the cancer had to make and financially impacted that had on the Council's budget so at the moment
this year alone we spent 68 million pounds on Covert related responses either true x excess expenditure some 38 million or in the to lost income on many of our commercial or or other income strands
so unfortunately that 68 million pound is rising every day it's not it's not it's not going away and the as you can imagine where now right in the middle of preparing for the second wave of COVID-19 and we are receiving requests from the government on a daily basis in terms of more activities that they want local councils to pursue as the response at the moment you've probably seen much of it in the news track and trace and testing is going to be coming our way and there were just getting out officers set up for that of course that means we have to divert resources to that but financial resources and also our staffing resources but of course very important work and we are fully you know up for doing it but the consequences are from a financial perspective are very very hard indeed and what I would say is that at the moment that it's very uncertain as to whether or not the government will refund the council fully for these it's expenditure we certainly haven't got to the point where we can say the doing that and there's a shortfall between what we're spending and what we're losing an income and what the goal would have provided with a so far of course that that debate goes on and we'll we'll continue on as the as the year progresses
but of course the further context of the Council's budget as you know Chair is that we had some persistent areas of overspend in the budget which we were struggling to do it was before covert ever happened so there was an underlying 10 million pounds with the pressures mainly in Children's Services but also environment than an in technology so those were savings that we were addressing before Kerber ever happens and they remain they remain in place and difficult for the Council to to address so this year as you are aware we've already made 5 point 4 million savings in-year to address those pressures
and we've also introduced spending controls right across the Council so fairly strict spending controls to ensure that we are monitoring very very carefully all of our expenditure
unfortunately the funding arrangements for the future unsettled yet so you're probably aware that the the as I said that compensation that we're going to get for covert has still not settled and that will carry on that the Bill carry on for for some time but we also know that the comprehensive spending review which is usually a three year review which is that the Treasury and the takes on behalf of the government and that's not going to happen this year if it were it's likely that we'll get a one year settlement rather than a tree assessment of course with a one year settlement you know again you you're trying to plan you know 3 year budget and it's very Jones of this so when the set when when the settlement from the Treasury isn't isn't isn't covering that PIP period
and of course the out Provisional Local government Finance Settlement just 13 years that were for next year that won't be ready until December I'm very very quickly after that then we'll have to put to finalise the budget and bring a report to the Council to set our own budget as which with a statutory responsibilities zoo in February in the year so that that's all go beat taking place so you can you can see that it's quite it's it's a moving feast at the moment there's there's a there's a lot of uncertainty in terms of what we're going to get in as a lot of on certain terms of what will also end up spending now I do need to point out that we have of course of the Council Augusta's produced our Medium Term financial Strategy and we've identified that to balance our books over the next three years will need to make savings of some 40 million pounds so that's a very very significant sold to make
given that the council has already spent the last 10 years in a Sturry and an across there's no sign of that changing
On top of that 40 million pounds I mentioned earlier on the 10 million pan underlies expenditure that exists that we were struggling to deal with any way we need to build that into that picture as well so that gives you a sense of what we need to address over the next three years are very challenging some euro to address and it's particularly hard for the Council given that we've already had 10 years of savings taken from our Budget by the government so most of the you be aware you've done the work over the years I've done the work over the years this is probably the hardest budget that are addressed in my time in local government
and I don't say that easily but it is as you know we've been working very corporately across the council and indeed beyond the Council with our partners to address this really big challenge in eight thematic approach and you'll see the papers that we've laid out a series of strands which we've been working on across the council so the senior managers in the council have been leading on these strands and the attempt was to bring a new dimension to how we we we approached the savings this time around looking which more strategically and looking at process the linkages across the different service areas and able or partners so just quickly one tree that the headlines that so that productivity clearly that's about trying to do things more efficiently in the Council looking at particularly what we've learned during COVID-19 the massive investment that we've made in technology to transform silver services overnight the different related that have had less citizens and our residents and tree the web indeed what we're doing here tonight which is which is you know wouldn't have happened you know before covert and you know that the opportunities that that brings it there are some downsides that there are opportunities in terms of how we work and have flexibly the organisation can work in the future I think we'd let a lot of lessons that we can bring to that joint working
in working very closely with the Health Service the NHS love letters and a slam and are also our other partners that policing the parts of the police and fire brigade and be mother thinking about how we address the problems and the challenges that we've got collectively also having some robust conversations with each other about where the the proper costs should sit for some of the services that we are jointly responsible for and and and the those a robust conversations that are ongoing
as service reconfiguration that's looking at the way we started to work much more flexibly which more adaptable now looking at the fact that we're dealing with our customers in a different way thinking about what sort of front office we might have in the future what does that customer interface like and thinking about radically really about how transforming how we have the engagement with future can help us bring down costs and reduce re inefficient ways of doing things
and then asset rationalisation that's about looking at our land looking at our buildings looking at a premises making sure that we're making the best use of those premises thinking about you know whether or not work we're getting an appropriate income for our ranks step looking at the commercial possibilities also thinking about those pieces of land or buildings which are such liabilities and they're not strategic for some whether we whether we might look at thinking about a different approach for those you know if we can use them better and if they can't turn of it to a commercial prospect and if we can use them for some social purpose then should we think again about how we use them or whether or not we hold onto lose future and a commercial approach I think you know we've talked about it you the council has done some excellent work in relation to what we need to think about as we go forward in terms of the mindset of our of our our services and and how we approach a traded services in particular and commercial opportunities which can help us gain income for the Council in future and then finally demand management which really is a bit across a big demand led services so Children's Services Adult social Care Environment obviously and and housing and those services that are very very demand thinking about how we can manage down that the man's intervene earlier and better if we reduce costs by dealing with you know difficult issues earlier in the in the cycle of those issues thinking about preventing homelessness will then
they were homelessness you know working where our landlords make sure that we don't get those and that's really what demand management is about it's about either it's diverting expenditure it's reducing volumes or its sharing costs and that's that's really with that strength of his
I I also have to let you know that unfortunately you know today the savings that we identified some 18 million I think some strips of 15 million of savings 15 point 9 million savings overall for the Council unfortunately is very a great deal short of the 34 million we need to identify for next year
so we will be coming back to you in January with further savings I'm sorry to say an our officers are you know today already working up some further proposals for you and we'll get those back to you early in the new year so again that leads of even if we take these very very difficult decisions tonight
and end if the American and the council decides and and this approach we will still have a big gap in the budget and that's very difficult to message for me to put across tonight and for it to do the
I just think I'd like to say that you know thank all the officers have been working on this over the last six weeks or so in the Council right across the services because the other one hand trying to deal with COVID-19 and practically doing everything we asked of them and everything we'd want them to do in terms of supporting our community and on the other hand we're I will give them the very difficult task of looking at cutting services which obviously they found very challenging so I'd like to thank them
that's my intro I know you've been given a navigation sheet tonight I am Chair wasn't proposing to go through the that the savings but I'm quite thick questions on them and try and you know clarify any matters that you might have if that's OK oco will focus very much covering
in these times of economic uncertainty it's reassuring to know that we'd got firmly the shipping governments and clarity and they're ever so well organised so early that so little sleep soundly in our beds but having said that a little bit sarky note there I'd like to I think I'm sure Committee members would agree that we like to pass on are a thanks to all the officers who have worked hard to look at savings as well because it must be as painful for them as it is for us to carry out and I would also add on a person slightly personal note as I have a friend whose elderly parents in Sydenham
I suddenly needed adult social services help at home after operations etc and they had nothing but praise for Lewisham council staff in the last few days so I just thought I've mentioned there and what I propose to do is we've got about
1 2 3 4 5 at 8 to 10 items that I'm going to list them for you I'll take the first one to coming as I've got a question and when I mention also mentioned the next one so if you're looking ahead you can find out what we're going to discuss next because I know how difficult it can be chopping and changing between devices and paper Irk and everything in this current situation so
what I propose to do then the first cut is on page 81 it's a 0 3 its corporate transport arrangements OK and then the one after which if you want to have a speed up and take a look at it is page 205 E 0 2 income from Building control so be doing that one next page 2 0 5 so first off this page 81 for transport arrangements and the only thing I can say is this getting rid of the car pool of I
I am trying to understand how will it affect staff who can't cycle Anita's say get to people's individual homes to carry out her assessments and stuff like that could you just stir gristle flavour of what's how we're going to address that yeah well I identified we can dill way with are all in the first instance that's the most important thing so I think the leader blamed but when I looked at the budget the other day I think we're spending around around 3 that 50 thousand a year in you know paying people for their own car transport and and and when frankly we haven't really looked at this over the years but as we move into the future it makes much more sense to really look at blended approach to people working across the council and around the Borough because truthfully what we've learned during covert is actually a lot of the interaction can take place over over the way way doing it now and so what what what many of our officers have done who used to go out and visit businesses you know and visit you know premises for all sorts of enforcement reasons they've learned to do over the over the over the over the internet and so many take advantage that but we also the to encourage our staff to do a little bit more walking and cycling around the Borough there's no reason why we need to drive around we can do that it's part is probably more efficient most asserted belief and you know you you won't be spending time in traffic jams and obviously where there are issues of equipment and where you know the people need to carrying around week we need to have a more blended approach so I see it as we go forward I see less dependence on the car for individuals more walking and cycling but there were that won't be for everyone and I accept that and there are people who will need other forms of transport and we'll we'll be we'll be minded to enable that we think that the saving that we've got here is a relatively modest amount over the first few years to we see that blame them and their and that will tell will learn from that and you know so yes I think the answer CAC Chair is that it we don't intend to do away with a fully until we can work out how to do so but I think we can have a lot more people you know using walking cycling and this this saving is a partial saving is not full same
OK thank you for that
or have got questions for each member of the Council of the Committee on this item Castlecroft Sky and I have actually got a question on this item but I also wanted to make a plea that we add in a 0 1 on page 68 which is productivity which is actually probably the biggest cut across the council and its completed cross department so I just really feel that that needs to look
especially in the light of the waste management IT and cuts a spiral and so I think that we should have a look at that so even if it's tacked on the end I don't mind that I think it's cannot crucial cut that we should be looking at in in this committee so that's the plea for that and then the question act that what I was going to say about this particular cut that we're talking about is I really welcome I think it's a really good idea but I think that and there are certain instances like where I would imagine that it would actually be cheaper for people to be taking public transport instead of using a cock-up so I would like to see greater use of public transport especially for those people who can't drive or ride a cycle so yeah I mean I like the idea of a hybrid approach in making its flexible as possible basically but yes I would welcome this OK thank you for Councillor Head of Ronnie you have a Christian on this item or is it on something else with my
the Committee will not not specifically on this item Tajura
OK in any kind of this not with a guy and a bit later than if if I might but then you down a list likewise Councillor Walshaw to have something on the sytem or is it further down the list that by adding I think on this item by to share some of what Councillor crusty said though they're Estela de proposed cuts are in the paper that I do question as to why they're not also coming to this committee
because I do think they would be important for us to have a look at in fact the first 2 above this so the staff but activities Councillor crops he said but also the hybrid roles for enforcement because that fat also it is us as far as I was aware I think that some of the we potentially Tabaré look at and majeste I've there was a
all cabins set-piece at the beginning there was some questions the hybrid quickly like answered so the five
in the report it says that the the difference between the available spend a per resident today versus 20 10 it's 500 pounds per head than is that correct is that we actually are his yes that that quite extraordinary and I think that needs to be very much sought about allocated to residents because
if you think about council tax which may force the Africans' I dunno a hundred pounds a month her having 500 pounds cut that from the what was censured grant from central government means a lot more is being put on residents and their contributions through the council tax system which we know is inherently unfair as a form of taxation and I think that you know it really for Holden's us to to hold the government to account and also make all residents of where about the fact that they've lost 500 pounds worth of funding due to this austerity over the last decade and I think that's something that I would hope that we as a as a council really really communicate to our residents heavily but yes I will on so that staff are on this truck on this specific car as was asked and one of the things that I am interest in is the use of a car club scheme are making sure that I'm a member of I probably should declare that the Member of zip car which I think is his the borough's provider of choice APA moment the the making sure that we don't end up in a situation where we're still hiring the Baikal even though the vehicle isn't moving because staff have to her keep equipment inside that vehicle or need to ensure they are able to get back the provision and number of Physic cause within the area friend demand has or hasn't kept pace with one another and I know for instance that being out to access her one of these pooled card schemes has meant as got a lot harder for me as a as a subscriber months and what I wouldn't want to see happen is are staff being caught out going visiting residents on the other side of the bar remain with a piece of equipment or something and then not being able to get back and I would like some assurance here on them
I coach Latika Councillor Clark's question first coving and then come back to you the at Councillor Clarke it thank you Chair and it was just around this actual cut and I was also interested in the other the hybrid roles that James brought up but he's already said that and I was just going to say that Sam on this this cut
have we actually considered it because of a new way of working were asking a lot of people to work from home and therefore would it be possible for some people in certain roles to actually do the areas closest to their home so they're not having to travel into Council and then travel back out of Council and so that could save an awful lot of time and an awful lot of money I obviously some people in enforcement might not like that because if you're enforcing in your local area you might make enemies within that local area but if it seems like visiting catering if that to give a licence whatever else those type roles you could do it so I wanted to put actually thought about that thank you
so cause across feeds became my my emission I don't wide in say public transport because that is you are as you can imagine it's it's my it's our preferred option always I think it must be because the the situation that read currently were we are balanced in our view about using public transport and so that's probably the same place definitely part of the picture you know there's no reason got great bus services and and train services in condition hopefully at some point in the future we also have a TUPE that we can use so yeah that's my emission sorry about that Councillor Walsh yeah I take the point we we I think we've got to work out how to make sure that doesn't happen but we will do I mean that's a logistical you know negotiation terms of how we make them we can't we we certainly by one staff stranded anywhere so it's a point work would take no I'll note that and I think absolutely right cancer Clarke the the you know half of our staff live in the borough as ever in a so they are always working locally to a great extent so I don't I think we can build on that and and I I know and carefully managed the relationship between is not cause it's not just enforcement as other services as well but carefully managed you know relationships can show that you know
even enforcement can be done with a smile
OK thank you very much caring and our trust like trade or having clued it actually whether it's not in order we asked to be added the hybrid enforcement roles to this so he will be tackling that as we will be let's page 73 of those that are interested also page 1 9 1 dear 6 the Catford Campus Estate consolidation it's relevant to this committee both several levels and also know that various members are it's quite local to them as well so so as promised the next item is a
Page 2 0 5 8 0 2 income from Building control and the one after that will be paid 280 F 15 Environmental operations review so that's the next one after this fun so if you go to page 205 income from Building control can I ask members just to ask a question now everyone I think we've happen apart from Jimmy we've had our general thoughts so if you could stick to questions because we've got quite a few things to get through so her who who were once it if you just put your hand up was only four of you who wanted to have a ask a question on this item
search the income from Building control page 205 but it if it's not controversial I showed just skip ahead
Councillor customer asking as put a hand up he can you put your the camera as well face my cameras on Chair I was I can't see you know I Can and yet thank you very much can you just explain this to me please that's all right to so that I can understand accurate is cut means yeah well it's not actually cause it's a it's a whole increase in income as a I think you know are Billy control a service has been performing very modestly for in recent years for all sorts of reasons and I think what I'm saying here is I think we can use the Council's muscle is wider Castle you know services to encourage those private developers who are going to the planning process to think about our own Building control service when they think about that that particular service they don't have to come to the council but we would prefer they did of course in terms of built safety in our own and and our own assurance that was being built in the boroughs of to our standards so we think we can I think at the moment they get about 300 thousand quid a year in income and this is just pushing at both a little bit further out we think we can do that obviously it will depend on the economy coming back but we think it's a fair first and put in at this point we will need to reorganise our services a little bit to sharpen them up and to bring that commercial mindset which I spoke about in the intro to that to that particular part of the Council K thanks getting it just briefing he got an idea of how much you'd like to increase the revenue by well after the are put in over the next trees are put in you know fairly modest sums I think up to 50 thousand a year but I think it could go further than that but we just need to be modest at the start whip OK thanks Kevin well with very early the next question I have is Councillor Walsh
My question wasn't about the site and share it was about whether or not Carty 0 1 should also be included here but I can part buy until later O'Carroll we can come to that thank you
right so the next item is page 280 it's a fisting it's cleansing virements operations
I would just ask a general question if I made Kevin before I ask my colleagues to jump him is a a obviously I think it's important to state that for most Councillors this is one of the most important things we do in terms of maintaining public or faith in the Council's ability to run the barrage because the clean streets are so important on so many levels and for all the arguments that I have no need to rehearse here now or so and I know we had departure of a senior member in the team in refuse collection but he is also responsible street sweeping I can't remember his thank only submit them but could you just give us a little bit of background on and where street sweeping is at the moment yeah I will do and I happen when I finish I'll also and because I can see that our new Director of public realm has joined us this evening so I didn't ask him to companies that hearsay Mali to say tailored to the Committee because I'm sure you see much of him in the edge Drax relies so that excludes yeah OK what so I think this areas ripe for change really we've we've got we've got as it Yes you're absolutely why it's such an important facet of what the council does keeps a streets clean and make sure that our waste is collected and dealt with efficiently and but really it's it's been a while since we looked at the whole operational model and and by bringing waste and cleansing together and looking at the the the crossovers between those areas so things like you know who does the fly tipping what's the difference between waste and what's done in street cleaning where where and thinking about really replace base solution as opposed to assert a sort of narrow service pay solution that's what we're talking about here and there's a series of options in their that we're looking at and thinking about and we as you can see this as a year to saving so we're going to spend a little bit of time bringing this on limb and the near directors tasked with doing that is well on his way to to to start in that process so we think that just surely just by bringing things together will help us we may well need to think about some of the operational models we got at the moment and we we may well want to think about as we go into the future about whether or not we need to again consider the the waste collection service and how we do now and you know we made a big changes a couple of years ago it may well be in the future as long as we can drive down because we is big the charge for the council and our own community to drive down the amount of waste for producing must do that in the next few years because otherwise you Aberdeen when the climb issues but the saving that we've put in as a printer 30 thousand pounds we think we can make it but bringing these services together and looking at some efficiencies across the boundaries but like like you chair I realise how important this is to get right for our citizens are now what happens with it doesn't go right
so
I don't know if there are further questions before acreages XOVER or character of got Councillor Krakowski a first
OK I've got to him and so and OK I'll just rattle through them cabin bed if you can an and and have her I think probably the addressed the Committee might have similar questions but and so firstly how many members of staff do you think are likely to be affected are made redundant and how serious is the risk of adverse perception of the Borough in kennis and what is the change in approached complaints around cleansing that you mention what do you mean by hybrids of cleansing and litter picking there it doesn't seem to be anything in this in either F 15 or 16 about the income from commercial waste and there's nothing in his cuts about this and yet last year there was quite a big concern about the fact that we were losing potential high earning her high earning income and the I know this crosses over with F 16 but I think it's all as you're saying it's all kind of part of a whole packet so I just want to know if you got any idea about where this waste minimisation sweet-spot is that light so we don't have overflowing bins and and costly problems with cleansing and flytipping because we reduce the capacity of our waste to be picked up and I wanted to know if you had any idea about sweet spot of that and then all suppliers really finally Kemi I just want to know what you feel we can do to start the conversation with businesses in the Borough
debate about actually reducing Airways and and was about passing on their waste
and like the stuff that they actually sell to us as services and goods in Lewisham and how they reduce that waste so that it doesn't end up in our bins and how do we start that conversation had we actually move that conversation forward Turner there's loads of questions then upon it as Committee by bus so lots of questions but I'm in its key this one I think
they so let me run through them in terms of the number of staff affected I don't fully know the answer to that yet but we will we will definitely have an answer by the time Beckham to make decisions about it and I think it does depend on I I think it will be a blend of management vacancies that we can you know we complained into a new operation that we've got so I'm hoping as I would were any service that we can cover some of those savings by
the usual natural wastage that takes place if you like over the over the year and also by taking advantage of some author some other management changes that I've been making in the service today so but I so I would hope to have as little as possible impact on the staff on the front line however well well what I what I don't want to say to you is that it won't have and also I do I am mindful that I'm going to have to come back to this Committee in January and I think when I do I unfortunately I will have savings there which will have staffing implications and other set them out fully
so the next thing I think was the the change in approach to complaints well I think if we can if we can if we can get a a a place based service that feels like it's more local with that that the that that will tackle problems before they turn into complaints and we need to think about how we empower the staff who are doing that job at the moment to solve problems which are maybe slightly outside their remit at the moment so you know when when when we got people on the ground whether it's the waste a service or whether it's street sweepers you know I want to try and broaden their approach so that they can deal with things that they feel need dealing with and come to their attention on the street at without having to bring it back to the base where it may well end up in some saw over long winded approach so so I think we need to and that will double double also I hope be starting point in conversations with our community about how do we keep the place clean together because we can't just the Council catches keep expanding services in relation to waste we do the people to change their behaviours that an understandable for all of us I know that it's difficult for all of us and challenging for us but that's partly hybrids of of cleaning and litter-picking so one of the things that we did during COVID-19 was we we because we had to protect the waste service so I pulled back on some of the street cleaning and and because because I I use some of the street cleaners as loaders when some of the crews went down with COVID-19 and I I'm I'm I hope you didn't notice that too much but but but I wanted to protect the waste services because that that's a primary service so so one of the things we tried doing was we we sampled some areas where instead of sweeping histories we just did quick quicker less effete picking so it meant the streets in yet sweat as often and this equipped Lit List of pickings much quicker so you can cover the be so there are things like that that we're going to look out and see if we can them systematise bit more also the other thing we did we we we were we did some targeted work you know so we I spoke last year about this if you remember I was thinking about if we do have to reduce a service can be bicker with a bit more flexible adaptable work out where the problems are which are not necessarily the same place every day and deal with those as as we go so try to make the service more flexible
and just to and commercial waste we this this includes a big piece of work and commercial waste so I'm still not satisfied that we are running it as a proper commercial business so I I'd so I've asked the NI directed to really to get to to really get some people into help us look about because if we if we I I'm I'm I'm I'm fully you know optimistic that we can run as a commercial business but I felt we couldn't one as a commercial business I mean we're making money out of it I would be asking you to think about not doing it because it could be done better elsewhere and so it shouldn't cost the Council monitored it to run a service but it is at the moment and and again you know with with the I wanted this and more work in that this year but that the Commercial Estates been hit completely by covert so actually all of those trains that we know me like money from you know that's just completely remove lowest that this year could be so we're going to have to start up begin but you know fully conscious that as part of this work is hidden in there but it's part of this work in terms of the sweet spot
I don't know what the sweet-spot is what I do know is that it changes and while I've been conscious of again in the last year is quite interesting to people's behaviours are changing because people spend more time at home that hit they become more conscious of their own straight and one as like and and also not only those spending time at home with their actually spending time in their local shopping areas and in their and so so what what we've now got I think is a sense of people taking a renewed pride in their areas we need to build on that you know why should people lit at the Street the you know why why should the Council have to clean up after picking we all witness we now know no one in their right mind this is the street because they know what the impact is in it so we need to build on that and nymph that sweet-spot to a space where it's it's it's it's it's less costly for the council so you know you hear loads of conversations about the circular economy that's really where we're heading in the future so it's not just about recycling are collecting waste it's about you know a soul thinking about what can you reuse forest but why do you really need to TRO this thing out our can so on and in your enable use it you know and so it's not so I suppose what I'm saying is this is not just about a waste collection service it's a completely new way of thinking about our relationship with our citizens and our businesses in relation to what they produce and then just go back to the business thing for why why can't we well I think the legislation will help us I think should the legislation come in which the going has suggested are going to bring him they will be penalising produces of waste and they will expect those produces a waste including the big supermarkets they will expect that waste to go back to them so that you know should the legislation come in I think this is the direction of travel and then we get to the sort conversation that we need to have a businesses at local level well in another part of the the Forest were were we're we're we're building up back capacity to deal with business because of the economic recovery that we need to make and we recognise that we need to have different conversation with businesses particularly in the town centres and and that bit of work will be part of our economic recovery which will again will feed into the work of in the public realm and future so I hope that's answered some of those questions thank you right thank you very much from I've got Councillor Clarke Councillor washing cluster STEM Roscrea in that order before I call on Councillor Clarke progress wanted to follow up on that caring because 0in a previous Council Meeting I asked a question about do we have the power to
issue a bylaw banning the use of plastic carrier bags from shops and the answer that came back to them was ambiguous I I nobody was sure A and R it's a Serie really serious because I think it's an effective thing we could do and quickly it's an it's not shocking any more people being charged 5 p 10 p for plastic bags and so could be getting used to it but there still a phenomenal amount because people can afford it they pay the extra 5 p so there's
tons and tons and tons of plastic bags being used by supermarkets in the SPA every day and I wonder can we pursue that and I think psychologically especially from what you're saying them from what we know we won't be a big shock for people they'll just turn up with the bags they need to take their shopping home what yet complicated about that could you just but responsive I will identify the answer but I will I will look into it
thank you Councillor Clarke
I know the answer to that chair he just charged 10 pound a bag
that's very young quick can way of doing it but anyway thank you Chair I was going to say that I am quite concerned about when it says we organise intensive town centres sweet street sweeping and you mention or reducing staff from 22 to one now I I've just on a very in-depth piece of work on high streets and and one of the issues around high streets is that it's clean neat tidy it it can be a real off-putting part and we really don't want to hit
High Street and it's been hit enough without being hit again and so that that was of deep concern because town centres are areas avert grigio generation of literate you know and so wanted it you choose comment on that
the other thing that Sam I was going to ask you is to is also about him communication we do have the bulky items collections we have services like that but quite a lot of people I speak to don't know about them and it's communicating our services to residents out somehow we have to be far more effective at doing that especially when there appeared services the first third thing which is actually probably the most important was job-sharing I do think we have a duty to our employees over the next two to three years there's very likely going to be a huge fallout from covert and there are already already must job losses losses and I would prefer to be given the option of doing two and a half days a week you know down from five to two and a half than losing my job completely and if there was any way of splitting jobs so that we have to people employed I know other on-costs for that but if we could still keep people employed on lower hours but have to people covering the same job I would much prefer that them somebody lost their job completely Kazak can be devastating and traumatic and I think there was one other thing
0yes I think we do have a slight problem with masks and again it's about communication there is some new litter coming into play and I think we really need to communicate to our appeared our residents that there have a huge responsibility yet not to litter because it costs them money when their litter so I don't know how we could do that but if somehow we could get a campaign I think the need a national campaign on this personally because and and things like fly tipping as well report if you see it report if you see somebody doing it try and get a number plates so I think there's quite a few things that we need to think about helping people change behaviour to Nike
sorry we shall I start with the that the one that you pick up as the most important one jobshare yeah I think the Council's fully open to the idea of job shares we have been you know if he has meant many many people do jobshare and the Surrey thing it is part of the answer as we go forward work life balance and and getting that right so that's
it may be that refer I mean I know you you has across gear on said that she wanted to ask some questions about the the generic corporate saving of 3 million pounds across the because I think that's job-share comes into that so I'll come back to that maybe about pointing but point taken absolutely I think we we need it many many many more flexible ways of working as we go forward but jobshare certainly one town centres yet no I agree in you know what that one of the the changes that we've made to the concept of this director's role is in a we've we've we've we've with consciously moved away from calling it environmental services and we've talked about public realm and you know the at the idea is to see you know the public space as as as one you know is it's it's a shared space that we all take part in now whether it's can't centres how we use town centres what the traffic like a town centres but and is it easy to cycle to them as easy to walk to them can you hang around there can you enjoy them are they lit of Greece so that's all part of our that's all part of the plan and so you know we we at the intention is not to reduce you know the the the the the cleanliness of the borough the intention is to keep the Borough's clean as we can with the resources that we've got and that's always the balance
in terms of
the question you asked me was that
about communications yeah
I mean I I wait we've got to find smarter ways of engaging people in in in in this journey that we're on and I think the big picture for people is that you know it's on with our up with surrounded by lots of unhealthy issues and you know we've got air pollution we've got dirty streets we've got in our policing traffic you know we've got all of these things you know and an and actually in our we can't just wait on the council to solve them all we've got to work together with our communities will or businesses you know we've got to work together with you know individuals and I did try and find a way through this which isn't which witches which has inevitably painful for some people at some of the time but but eventually you know you get to a sweet spot a better place where people are taking more so we we we
I mean the fact that David Attenborough has to go on TV regularly telling us you know how badly we're doing as a globe will tell you that the kick that communications behind this is not easy so so Lewisham council needs to learn from the people who do this the best and we need to try to emulate that no doubt about that
thank you very much for Councillor Walsh thank care and delighted to hear Kevin that we were Our her looking very seriously moving back to play space management I know from my residence day literally pull their hair out when they'd say several different teams turn up to an issue although very live example recently for me was someone had chosen to fly tip a fridge felt still filled with rotten food and the fridge was collected but the rotten food was left on the pavement first models to then come and collect have that Thatcher's makes us look incompetent I think I can understand why from a management point of view why that you know it's different services different waste removal I get that by I think for Firth the layperson they would quite I think they would see that as an improvement upon service have I'm keen to hear thoughts a little bit more about what's happened during lockdown and the covert crisis we know the direction of travel is 15 minute cities and people either working closer to home or from home in greater numbers it's an expedited or by that that will I think have a significant impact on waste and local waste particularly in Lewisham which is being up until now commute Obara have we seen any increases in in waste since lockdown stuff lockdown one started and and do we need to be factoring that into our forward planning as sort the for an you didn't mention and I'm wondering if there is any further scope for mechanisation because whilst I appreciate that we got some manual strict streets sweepers I do see other boroughs they have automated vehicles of urban go round and I think cover a greater amount of area in a quicker amount of time and does not have any upfront cost that we need be aware of her I completely agree with Councillor Cork actually or our communications specifically our website is incredibly difficult for an ordinary resident of fine the thing and the need to find white must have spent on a regular user of our website as most Members are here and I must have spent like 25 minutes the other day trying to find a specific service or team I think that we need to have a very clear Dashboard a bit like a mobile phone or a tablet that bore with icons on for the different services that residents might want to access so whether that be mattress collection a pest control whatever is just there as a very simple screenings at the moment you have to dig around yet the Director at the something sticks under and that's not clear and they have to dig around within it then to find the stoppages to it or website it's not fit for purpose in my common from my current perception and finally picking up again Councillor Cox excellent points I do think that the we'd potentially should have a look at business improvement districts and we don't have any in the mission home and I do think some bids with a tiered levy system so larger businesses the Harlem larger corporates payer a significant rate and small local businesses pay next to nothing a nominal rate and have that that investment back into our local community from the businesses that are profiting from it so that's my thoughts how OT yes well lately we share frustrations on the place based approach so that I know that frustrates me no end you know when I go around the world
and so I'll meet you on that and that's one of the things we have to tackle
the increase in waste since we start I haven't looked at the statistics in the last few weeks so I'll I they were fluctuating definitely at the in the first big lockdown they fluctuate quite a lot so I think a specified go back to the officer dig dig that figure add some sadistic and let you have those and we can have a proper discussion about when when we're looking at them because I I I I think they were quite volatile for a while but I think overall there wasn't more waste overall that's my does my general impression but I want to check that out in terms of mechanisation yet that's in there we were definitely going to be looking at that
you know about doing things more efficiently particularly on in in in in some of the areas that could take mechanisation and it can work well the website you'll be glad to know not my area of responsibility but I know that there is being looked at corporately and there's a there it we are going to be looking to transform to do exactly what you're saying which is to try and make it easier although I think it is a never ending challenge you know to to try to make it easier but yeah we definitely need to do that and tells the business districts I I I will have a look at that I'm not I know we've looked at in the past but I I don't know what the latest picture is an upper will therefore have a look at that and I look at my colleagues and in that regeneration
OK thank you very much that carry mix for one apiece Councillor Stella of Sky thank you Chair and just a quick can actually really Kevin if it follows on from what Susanna was saying early on as well as been on my mind to mention it to somebody important for some time and it's a very it's a very retro and very simple thing we all know that the fly tipping you know is it a London wide thing not just solution is a London wide thing and as soon as we clear it up it's picked up again
have you not thought that we're not thought about doing a kick Lewisham Tidy campaign just the Flyers and things on the wall on the thing you know I just keep it reinforces the message I know it sounds really silly and 19 72 but it's just it's that if we just that's the one way of defined to people look kick you Neighbourhood tidy and it's just if you know 10 the center people could you know pay attention to it some kind of when
I did not encounter sorry carrying before you aren't so could I just I I totally agree with that and I'll give you an example why and I'll be very brief is some people who move into the area
they see people putting stuff on a street corner and they actually think that's the way you get rid of your lumbar or your rubbish they think that they before do in and I had a few you know I had to challenge people on that bird various time so and I just thought I've mentioned so what you were saying is very valid people need to be a lot of educated on that yeah yeah so I was going to say I don't think it's it's all retro I think you know I I I we're now living in London in there's a there's a
were global city still unit is a transient Burrow we attracts a whole range of being from all over the world and a whole range of different approaches so I think you know several of you have mentioned about how do we communicate and had we get it right and how do we make it relevant to people so that they can actually pick up on it and I think keeping the place tidy simple messages about and are part of it you know what I think we have to do is try to put a whole communication strategy together those two that were picket were doing something that's that's that's that's sort of big enough and that goes on long enough and that goes and almost drip drip drip feed of a costly having to remind people that they need to they need to you know be mindful of the and a waste of producing is part is partly answered but so I'm I'm I'm completely for that
thanks very much so also the next I item Lear may Brahamdagh for his own out sorry her to revive RBS looking in the Czech function but carrying carry on gone is just that it could do after was pointing said about fracking
is an issue for everybody as we all know and he couldn't is one thing but what can be quite effective equal in many big cities but we do this kind of vision doesn't actually how much in Europe my experience of France do not have station having here in Paris and many many becomes
I am an occasion when fly tipping had been reported who have gone round that you Les evidence of where the flat it was coming from but nothing was done about it as one that was suggesting in camera we notice presently used camera but I don't major major thing people are doing no work had there been lazy
the forecast is away now there were opportunities with a CD on out whereby people can phone to have book item we move to get a carpet and the garden matches with a very free of charge don't use it another was to be looking at
penalty for those people who are engaging in other shoe behaviour etiquette good for the many people but what you are perpetrator of this they don't care to hood and only thing a hidden but realising them doing it
yeah and I'm not just to respond to that chirp I cazloyd Franny absolutely
equally its current state isn't it you know we need to do both but definitely we have been doing we do use cameras we do enforce quite a lot and there are a lot of people out there who are you know that the that that they are they are doing it because there are wilfully disobeying the rules and are wilfully you know making money out of chucking you know serious builders' rubbish you know in and fly tipping at around the burn and it is a big problem I my own view is that the the fines probably aren't nearly heavy enough so and that's that's that's dust does does not just a Lewisham issue that set the sort of local government issue that you know we need to we need to we will need to campaign for I think increased fines because you know that would cover the cost of actually doing them the enforcement and that's not happening at the moment and we know as in other areas such as landlord licensing whereby we have we we we now have the ability to raise enough money to actually build a service that's not the case yet when Forstmann to so but yeah no I agreeing and and I think as we again get through this review that we're going to do I the balance between enforcement and collection might need to shift a bit for a few years so he might need to do more enforcement for a while because of that you know to to be we want to be known as a place where if you fly tip you'll be caught
but it but again you know it's it's it's we we we just don't have the resources required to catch touched the ball frankly
but it's a big problem or go thank you Burkard and put before going to the next item while I'm going to do some could limit a good time limit for questions for a minute per person of just worked out that even if I do that and everyone asked a question each item that's another half hour of just questioning so ask you to be brief so Rippon concentrate on Kevin's responses I think he knows are coming from
so the next three items are F 16 the new Waste Strategy which is paid to 90
and then a F 17 and 18 on page 2 99 that's road safety enforcement an extension of the CPS aids and faith for safe in the or think about question if you want to ask one so Annapurna do
Page 16 Page 2 90 the new face strategy
who wants to ask the first question on that I think Luis might have a question they do for
now I kind of conducting the to those to kind of went together so I thought that can really answered the questions that I need it you know I sort of putting together anyway rows of thank you for that any any others then I've got a really straight on great stuff that's good we're doing on here so road safety enforcement of 17 its page 2 9 9 anyone have any questions about that
no
and they were on to the CPS said extinction affecting controlled Parking Zone Council of Walsh and if the rest of you could type in attack if you want to speak their council sorry care if we could could be disconnect F 17 I did have a question about that I didn't know about quite quick and fine of 17 roads out Forstmann so can I get understanding why we have chosen these numbers of cameras and enforcement because it does seem to to make a significant amount the saving and also seems to come with an income so what we do more of it
the current Alec brief question yet and well we're going to do as much as we can is the answer what that there are there are reasons why we haven't done it sometimes in the past you do it does require some investment I won't go into in detail but it's not just about cameras you do have to make sure the the roads are properly marked as a whole range of the things but but we will be doing as much as we can because
this is gonna be what frees up some of the traffic ones
so yeah
and and the purpose of the electorate to make a saving as a side issue that checkers I've got page that is again can re road safety is 2 9 9 thank you
and the next item is too busy fighting peak page 2 9 9 as well she said
so now I have Councillor Oborski
and it would be welcome to anyone's surprised over the and very supportive of CPS has been rolled out across the borough and I think it's a brilliant idea I think I think it it needs to be done strategically arm so that we actually used it in a way that brings all the different things that were tries to us Barrett about reducing car traffic that also kind of making space for siting and pedestrians and are making their mile per hour priority so particularly I think we need to focus on the roads Furse that where you've got parking on both cited street so there is absolutely no way you can make safe space to save space for pedestrians or cyclists I think it has to be done strategically and I think you have to do it in a way that the that are residents can actually see the benefits of what's actually happening as it gets rolled out and so that everyone starts to see the benefits before they start to kind of see the real negative the of it of you know I do think there's a problem with certain instance having problems with affordability are and I think that has to be done very very carefully and I am wondering whether we need a change in our constitution to be able to do this because I I thought it was written in opposition in terms of the way that we have the resident ballot or not I didn't I just want to understand that a little bit more whether we can just make this decision but yet I am is very much in support of this but I do think it needs to be done with sensitivity and strategic they would go from Cuba clearing yeah we we we we we don't have it it's not a constitutional issue that we might have policies that we might need to look at but I think absolutely it will be done you'll see that it's in Year 3 I think that when it works so we will we are going to conduct a very stringent evidence based approach to this and I'm very conscious how we need to win hearts and minds to get this right so I've I've up as Hugo the then this road recently you know where I feel we haven't got it right you know and and I know I have been here before 10 years ago actually when we raise the charge is quite a lot and then we didn't do too well that on so we will do this it carefully and in a thoughtful way in a considered way and you know and Anna but I think what one of the things that one of the things that definitely happened over the last year is there's been so much more traffic can back on the roads after the initial lockdown
that that people are calling out for this now and also the the the extension of EULAs has really had an impact
and so you know because we don't want to be a broader that just provides parking spaces for Kent in
OK thank you very much so reminding everyone that would restrict a 1 minute question so I'm going to ask you to wind up his if once were getting close to take me longer a Councillor Clark
thank you and I just wanted to sort of said to the Committee that we do have to be very careful about cameras I think we're becoming one of them the greatest countries in the world for surveillance of our people and having been to North Korea five times I realise what it feels like to be watched at every turn and I'm very seriously concerned about the number of cameras being rolled out across residential streets and it means that you can no longer walk down that any street in the borough without being watched I also understand that some of the traffic enforcement cameras are now being changed to actually look at people's behaviour nature their social distancing so I think it's actually about people's behaviour as well and apparently that's happening in quite a few boroughs it came up in them I think was men stone in Kent and it's been noticed that this is happening and I do think we have to be very careful about becoming the big big brother and also making a lot of money out a punitive fines on people as it is a balance between health and safety and then feeling like Big Brother's always behind you waiting to grab money from you and I think residents fear that we need to find that balance so I would said we must be cautious about this preferred His honour Kevin I agree with I agree with that and we will be cautious I'm not I'm not I'm not aware of the main sternness she are either pick that up but certainly we we there's rules about what you can use these cameras for and you can't you certainly can't use on the spy on people us that's thought thus but I take the point per Councillor Walsh they very much a chair so all I am a initially supportive of a Urbis CPS Ed about his borough-wide there are some things that I would want some assurances of though and that is around reorganisation of what is already there and how it does up decide how big as though is or isn't a because at the moment we've got a piecemeal approach because of what has been there we've got a very odd shapes Sapey dead and we have a anchor institutions in the Bara all declare an interest I live quite close to Lewisham hospital and they have different effects on the on the parking facility outside people's houses and I think we need to look at that I also quite like us
to not have cliff edges so when we are looking at this I know that a number of my residence in Rushey Green get very annoyed at the fact that are CPS beds are in force for the time when they are at work
when they tried to get home and park a public car Lecomte particularly around these anchor institutions so I would quite like anything that is brought forward to look at timings are not just the 9 till 6 7 notionally thank you very much Councillor Walsh caring I agree with that was quick
to return to the point thanks very much Castrogiovanni 0 Pemberton but one out I'm in favour Oby Dizin a couple as much as possible but if we are considering go into bottle White City said it must be done with all sensitivity aware a democratic organisation and to be thorough thorough consultation with people in a barrel
I'm anti-capitalism but not in the way that external bail-in tried to promoted I think the we must look at all the applications and you go to borough wide if you sat on street a only those in the proto
as to the so it doesn't it doesn't the actually makes his was because there are people who would like to see the dismal living there will always duchess who are affected by commuters putting a straight but when you consider them but of them do that there are reluctant to go ahead with it because the cost involved and if you are paying for parking or your street and has no throw policing of it that people are gonna penalised what I'm saying here is it not isn't it must not be a policy over night imposed upon people of Lewisham just by the four members of Council thank you to me I think we might that very clear and I think we share your views on that I would say are carrying you can respond to that
I'd I'm I agree I think you know we have to do this very carefully if to do in a very considered way we have to take people with us and we have to be evidence based so I take care cancer Franny's points absolutely or coat I'm Councillor Krupskaya hand as up we really spoke August is that an accident OK I write a kick right on so the next items which is back to what James mentioned earlier which has posed 73 or a 0 to the hybrid enforcement roles which are something this committee has
lobbied for supported for a long time so are glad senior advances on this
carry which you have you got any thing to say about this specifically and yet just to say that we we we did start this
in earnest about two years ago and actually when I away Emma Talbot was the sort of senior Lead Officer leading on across the council reporting to me and various things happened in in the intervening years at to you know to basically to to put put us off our tracks ready so were coming back to something that we started a couple of years ago I do believe we can do it all much better frankly and with this proposal what we're saying is we're gonna for proper programme management support in to really drive the true this time and I just think you know we put in some modest savings I think that can be the just reducing administration really we'll get those are
Councillor Krupke
and yeah I just wanted to know aye you're going to say to all the enforcement together and can need so be realistic with us about what areas of enforcement actually might be reduced as a result of this caught and also like can you give some examples of where you think you'll be might be to make this more commercial and has are there were other areas enforcement that we're not really kind of Blake getting our full bang for buck and and there's a on page 79 acumen resource impact again and but your the report to say how many staff earth due to be cut again says kind of unadjusted concerns were not really seen the come staffing cuts in full not saying that they shouldn't happen and Justin I think we should be transparent about them
well I hope feasible one imagines is going to be any staffing cuts in this certainly in the first instance soul is 50 thousand pounds of the first year to cross quite a wide range of services and I'm not I'm not talking just about foresee all these services together want globule one and it may well be that we will be organised some of them to work together and and to join but this is really about working across their boundaries effectively because as you can see there's a long list of different forced ments s or services that and some of them are a source of our very close to each other in terms of what they do some of them are quite distant so is trying to make get the best bang for our book but you know we don't even use the same systems
so that when 1 1 1 1 lot talks to another there's a whole series of administration processes go to that we could cut out if we do it properly so it but this is a this is really a piece of work which I hope will result in a more sensible serve services which can be understood easily by the public
her drug thanks very much a an any commercial benefits well I think we could get a lot more out of I don't think we're we're we're getting enough I'm return on businesses who are not obeying the rules that's a starting point
Bertram second Caspar Walsh
I shall be brief so I think one of our previous cut was already bad cut that we made as add significant impacts upon our residents and that is noise abatement enforcement I don't know if you've ever tried to get anyone's come out saw so how a whole weekend long rave that's going on in their issue but it is near impossible the police apart those in earned Lewisham MPs don't want to deal with it they don't see as their role and it's a real area that's fall between the gaps are all I am concerned about us moving more stuff together a particularly if record Byford means that it is only during office hours that enforcement happens I want so I would like to make sure that we got some assurances the out of hours enforcement also happens and that goes across a whole range of things not just for noise abatement and I think that we need to
Mr. Z look at this cause damages the quality of life of so many residents as we've seen this entire summer during lockdown
thank you for coming
OK I take that point and are built into the review and an annual I'll come back to the Committee with the review as it progresses so that you can you can you can shake but I mean it it's it's it's the council service so you can say that as we review
thank you for that catch the stellar off street
thank you Chair and Kevin I I don't know if you could few years ago the whole and enforcement team as an animated inter there the chronic forcing regulation service that we currently have now there's an what maybe four or five years ago initially I had my doubts about it but it has worked quite very well actually and we have a couple of very good managers there Endesa Hooper in this full with with that team so now you look election adding a more people into it even more things that we do into that hole into the whole thing to those we work together that that's that right that what you're saying I'm not this silly looking at moving people into together I'm looking at how they work across the boundaries and how they have a any allocate work across each other because I I see quite a lot of I her on my desk during the day you know two or three different enforcement results and the there arguing re each other as to who should do what often trying to you know should to I would to someone else and so and the reason they do that is of course is because the they don't see it as a joint endeavour you know so but of course it always is an and most of or or so of a famous victories in terms of enforcement and one I can remember as Cannery Row you know where we had like four or five of the enforcement agencies including Gary Connors and his this lot working to housing enforcement thing working together environment health where we tackle the landlord there and eventually got him out after many years you know and so that more working across the boundaries it Councillor Stone microscopy then there just Chillingham the but I actually think that that will work that as I said I'd done it and initially I did have reservations but I think it has worked really well but I think you know there are so many things that cut across boundaries and I I think this is a really good
a new way of working to correct savings though I'd quite like this thank you
right that's great thank you very much cluster of spirit Sherman Prince songs of the next item found very conscious that this could segue into a broader discussion about Catford on very keen we don't do that this is about the Catford campus in its particularly about the Old Town Hall and vacation by Lewisham homes to make way for other people to rented so I think if we could just stay focused on that
and Kevin could you just to summarise this issue Chair as I might I nes that Paul Moss on the on the underlying so and he it is proposed any knows most debated so I'm that if it's OK if of course welcome in and explain it and search editors know what pages again please yeah some page 1 9 1 D 0 6 pay thank you a poll more are welcome to the meeting
her tell us about this proposed I think we know it but I think we just needed a little bit of information around it if located adjusted top-line get good evening members if I just give a quick pence gach clearly we've seen massive disruption in our office estate the use of our officers state those precious hadn't just been an askew been observing out across London and I see knows first-hand with some of our partners are also seen great collaboration with our partners as we move through the early phases of COVID and this proposal seeks to build on that spirit of Camp collaboration of shared values are it also seeks to align advanced dry forward steal a March on some of the prince balls that you discuss members in this space none spaces around Catford taps into framework we endorsed that recently through to M and C is as you'll know Members at those thing is an opportunity to build on that and consolidate some of those values and principles that we've talked about there is also fundamentally about a value achieving better value in many senses it's about a range of blended outcomes not just saving money but also driving vitality into the into the heart of the town center are and an achieving some really important socio-economic outcomes fundamentally it's about giving a base to what we think we all need is a a strong employment support for within the Borough these difficult time so the one of the fundamental principles is to establish a employment support or fall on the ground floor of the of the Old Town Hall I walk me many Members or knows the Lewisham homes reception base and hub in that enact grant ground-floor operation and we'd bidding also for DWP funding our last two to three months ago very close to some senior managers there are we put in a bit about 300 K funding to establish a Youth Harbour and employment support off on the ground floor are also recently been untouched cheer Les to C see some financial support coming through from the jail 8 get Building Fund one of the early postcode funding stream so using a cocktail of funding to bring all these partners together and achieve arrange a blended outcomes and I are provided some now sitting in a table what its rear relying on is achieving off on the ground floor and a number of a particular health partners coming on board to rent space in the upper floors that's a combination of Lewisham Greenwich Hospital Trust members your appreciate that they are on the coin intense pressure on the hospital site they would like to free up on some of that office based accommodation space managers and an a back office staff coming off the hospital site to locate in the Town Hall and free up very very valuable space for clinical investment as part they stir or at the as part of their overall estate plans are not spill sign slam equally or in a range of quite fragmented or buildings around the Bar and this gives them an opportunity to come together and consolidate some of those offers and I think at one point I also want to stresses the synergy between the ground floor and some of that slam offer is also attractive in terms of the client group so really I think quite strong South proposition she heard me speaking this in other places the the potential financial gains also significant because it is about that that rent roll as genuine external income coming into the Council I if we can get those consolidated uses and that would come in over two two years really that's what we're looking at really trying to get at that I'll come running from April next year and in a further phase of evolution brings on stream another 400 50 thousand pounds of income in the second year of a start their members are are really happy to take any questions on our other determine paper her thank you very much that covert helpful one's quite promising a bit of good news
I think that some of the gloom I've got a question from Councillor Walsh
thanks very much of it sounds like you can take a lot of work poll on that score have greater here because you're working with some brilliant solutions I'll be very quick and ask your ground-floor opportunity with DWP youth provision have you author looked at partners in that and has that included higher education because I am mindful that a number of HE providers are looking for widening participation opportunities of which this would be one
how likely do you think we are on a scale of one to 10 of achieving the part those moving into the the empty space for doing that how what you think the headcount would be like that because I am mindful that I've got a higher appetite for risk if there is the benefit to the local economy and we see an increase to thoughtful to local businesses around them and then finally my pirates Day that was we look at consolidating the camp at Camp offices is there any other ground floor uses on any of the other buildings that might be believed being looked to be changed
thank you
she'll come back on that chair arm a great questions cancelled catchable thank you I'm you to higher education offers this you one of two propositions we're positioning with DWP as a second are that we're working on with Lewisham Lewisham College are that would see a second Youth Hub established are within their campus are in you cross so what we're seeking also to do is blend the offer on a reciprocal basis between the two sites that's just a start point and I'm sure once we've once we got Serpentine security we would build a a further an extended range of offers some programmes and at good emo other at 8 HE partners I'm sure door I so start for us and and platform on a piece infrastructure that we would then build on the definitely working with with Lewisham College I'd like to think Goldsmiths would be in there at some point as well with with with part their offer also working obviously with they councils on that our education provision and and and any any and new services are also looking to work with
other quite dynamic partners and we we talked about the Lewisham youth theatre sourcing I'd like to get some there are say some some cool uses in their others other uses are quite quite rich blend we'd like to work towards and on the other two questions around and look to ways dangerous to put a 0 or 1 to 10 score on likelihood or prospects and an I've got Cook nor confident on assist the weeks of gone gone past are tomorrow we sit down with a number of those partners looking at heads of terms so we are getting quite close into some of that that that that detail are to to to bring some certainty on that aye and no one to the senior managers of olden and yeah I'm I know they want this because they have their own drivers and outlined a got reasons to come to the party to free up space in their own a 0 arena until the numbers of staff and we're looking at potentially are overtime 3 to 400 staff are for which this could be a an operating base that Rice footfall into the town center thanks
although separate pick up my last question other any other ground floor you said Chairs I'll sorry campuses are
Ye that's that's interesting arm there are certainly other uses are at so Hall Holbeach I mentioned in the paper are the Youth offending Team which would need to be relocated
I think that's the only one I can think of readily our book Members you my EMA yer want to pick me up on her time thank you very much that that I've got three more questions on this summer and take them all together if I may appal because you've given quite a good account of it so far and I hope Members can keep their questions really really brief now so a Councillor crap Sky first of all I thank you very much poor brilliant am solutions and really pleased that the gonna get more people coming into Catford to work as fabulous and just if we are serious about like Mossbourne in the Civic Suite are we is there a possibility any possibilities all of the theatre being used for Council meetings and has any of the electrical work to make it safe actually been carried out or as that will be put on hold and how if we are going to have a scattergun approach to civic meetings across the Borough how how are we going to ensure that the public actually knows where the meetings are so that we can actually be transparent as a council and can we just make me make sure that any of the work that is done on the Old Town Hall actually fits with the master plan and we actually consider doing some sit some some work on the Broadway for place in start the place shaping so that all those three 400 people who are going to come to work in the Old Town Hall actually going to come to a nice place to work and actually we're going to get some more money for our local businesses thank you thank you Councillor crops scheme 0 Councillor out of Farani
the the future I do apologise if as a to my questions is obvious from your presentation and papers so my question is a fuel identified potential tenants for the premises enough to occupy the whole Bill if you haven't
is any discussion or if kind of tenants we are looking for
clear thank you to it
Capsula at a frowny I finally Councillor Clarke thank you Chair it was just very quickly on the hubs the hubs of tended to always be in the same sort of centres and a very different sometimes difficult for youth with very little money to move around and it's a it's the thing of having a big hub in one place versus the locality and I found I've been actually delivering local services I find it's much much better
though especially for poorer and more vulnerable people at their their services are very close to the community could I suggest you look at Grove Park youth club they have been desperate to start a Youth offer there and they are you know talking to all sorts of agencies and looking for all sorts of fur fund through funders and I think we need to look at this adult learning in lieu in Grove Park in all of these places I think we should get as close to the community isn't possible and not too far away because it doesn't get to the most vulnerable residents thank you or to function marked the last one so if you could her address those please Hall and will be very brief members it dot owing to the work on the theatre yes absolutely in terms of them the answer to Council meetings
when we returned shortly we will return to that point in time I am to be honest as I haven't got a full answer to that at this point in time that remains one of the implementation issues we will get to that and obviously Members will have views on that so I think we'll be bringing forward a any a separate auctions on that form for a fuller discussion with members the deficit commit to that going forward in its under the investment in a broad way absolutely yes and as part the discussion only today with the GLA on that get Building funding we we'd Surrey like to improve the permeability through the back door and ensure that that footfall valuable footfall does get so and spend money in the Broadway in a town centre making it easy yes is slightly challenging at the doesn't become a rat rat run through the building but we are definitely working on that a members to maximise that Councillor free early point about
the how many tenants the aim would be to to ensure that the building is its full within two years members and as a darting strong prospects of achieving that more work to do but it certainly real appetite there to once when I think more will come a lot along with that are integral to Councillor Fox point aren't you see this these being Hobson at the linking to a series of spokes and kept Kevin I've talked about that this is about core infrastructure not the only infrastructure so deftly building out about that broader base and network are absolute commitment to that Bro Park obviously akin to follow up on that members
OK that's okay everybody happy with those replies before I move on a Boston early James before recur you mentioned her another item which would be the last one some King to make sure recovered by we can though it was the item regarding essentially looking at our assets and commercialising them thar potential third movie usages and stuff like that because I'm a bit mindful that that may mean that assets the half-full community use could then be used for private use and I think we need to understand that a bit more because that that could be no parks or public buildings or other spaces being closed I'd quite understand that and what that is because that is began that is part of our uplands community has cast crushed go says a one as well
OK let's do that do want to respond to that poll
I'm just again just briefly members and Council she makes a fair point I mean we haven't got a detailed plan behind that proposition
I am but it certainly been discussed and I I think supported by colleagues across the Council on to set a an income target their the Serbia belief that we have a range of attractive beautiful quirky interesting those kind of words a unique would be another a at assets and sites and but a sunny there wouldn't be any intention to deplete any public offer as part of that so I take that I'm consideration in mind as we move towards implementation if members are supportive and certainly not aware of any specific proposition we have most specific intended to a close anything or reduce any public or use of a site in implementing that by take that concern for Members Chair if I might as quickly come back on the and all I am mindful that I believe in Blackheath when the Heath is used for the fixed number offence they cannot year there is a essentially a community levy payback to the local canina say I know that you know we got some brilliant
spaces now in our borough Beckenham Place Park being one of them and I note that the third the local members that's around that area have spoken a number of times about wishing to be our to open things up could we look at similar models that allow any community facility that is used for a commercial activity having some sort of kickback so it feels like the community get something in return
I think I think it's a great idea and really happy to look at that I suppose on if we can have an understanding members the that that perhaps comes after we've achieved that level of basing come and if there's more beyond that then we get into that a greater sharing if I can put it that way because you know our budgets are under real pressure and I feel an obligation to to tell the Council balanced budget but certainly if we can do more I think it opens up those both those options members
I think what Councillor Walsh has raised a very valid points because it can be perceived as strains privatisation of the public realm refine these extreme phraseology but I think one thing that might be helpful as we underpin any anything like this with a principled so we have some principles of approach when we are using a public space for fee-paying of enact this so he can say does it do A B C and D and one of those principles could be what James has just said about the to pay back so they yes benefit that that an also that everyone can see because not everyone can pay 20 quid to go and see a band and a festival but I think we made that point now on to Cassar Krupke has asked to look at a 0 1 which are
what the that Greece
think Liam's frozen slim frozen Over to you Councillor craps game
and if there isn't some termites on us the question
clay
whilst I took you got pictures your
one is on page 68 thank you I get and basically it's about the productivity of the council and its the biggest as far as I can tell is the biggest caught or of the Council's I think it's really crucial and it crosses right across all the different sectors I think we really should look at air and so basically my understanding of this is that all Departments how to increase productivity by 3 percent over the next two years to match the increase in inflationary spent on pay which is basically 3 million
but my concern is that this can only be done once and it's not actually a real cut in that sense so continuing it going forward can be tricky so have we assess I think if we are going to do this which I kind of support but we really need to assess but how this is going to be matched in other areas of the Council going forward and how we hope to find this murder of money again somewhere else after that period so and I cook because of that I worry that this is it so aspirational rather than real and I'm also worried that and because they're certain sectors that are going to actually be seen cut or they're going to actually in themselves become more more productive anyway how then you going to actually add on another 3 percent productivity onto a service by you're already saying that you're trying to make it more productive so particularly and that's where you come in Kevin because particularly how are we going to do that in waste and if you're already putting it under tremendous pressure to it cannot get its act together and so that's my take on any OK so job blocked by Turner is still frozen so really it's bad OK
when when the it's not it's not a cut that I've been that close to so I don't know the detail of but I blow having made exactly that point that the productivity gains to a great extent of the council have been in the areas of the office space stuff that's what because that's where the technological sort of revolutions happening so when they were modelling where they could you know takes up positively gain from the cause mainly the office play stuff and they have taken account of the fact that staff who either whether they swing history or collect waste that you know technology at the moment hasn't made a huge difference in their but it may do in the future
and as if there are other staff like enforcement staff are going to do with it an awful troubling but so that have taken that they've they've they've taken into account to extend as a broad level so I expect it will be deployed on that basis but what once it once it comes into play the idea is that you know as all of us have a turnover staff quite big Turner stuff so what what you try and do is as you increase as you're probably if you're productivity increases you don't fill those vacancies and so they are ongoing savings so that gusset very sure explanation for and the debate a longer explanation I think public accounts again is explore in more depth and that it the say so you may wish to send something onto public accounts
OK that's helpful
Chairman I raise no what a come back from her
now that that's good actually I think I might go to public accounts anyway and have a listening excelling as this can be some interesting stuff that thanks thank you very much Kevin welcome Chair I know you are about to move on to something else but I do want to introduce a new Director of public Health to see who's been patiently yes may not have the opportunity to meet him yet he's been patiently waiting and watching so Zoho do you want to say hello
were gleaming Members M and M Khan I'm the new direct public realm project to be here I think I've met some of you already yes I'm working with Kevin very closely on all of these savings and other service improvements and already if I can just say that we have made some changes already on commercial waste and got a senior officer on on board to make changes to realise those income targets that we'd be missing and I've got extensive experienced CPS and cameras so I know all about the sensitivities around that so I look forward to working with you all
thank you very much welcome to Lewisham thanks for introducing yourself and the were very pleased that you have that sort of experience so look showed all that big sorted out by December 31st
not but anyway welcome and thanks very much for coming and tonight thank you
I am right world that concludes that item on the agenda so a thank you to all the officers involved encouraging thank you very much appreciated and Paul and Sevilla and or any of the other officers in the background so thank you I've may the suggestion along with Tim that but we don't discuss our work programme tonight at the end of the meeting that we normally do
we can all decide or in a few weeks when we're fresh and I think some of the agenda will have moved on so we might may car a meeting in January more pertinent is the committee agreed on that proposal Braid thank you so much do appreciate that and I think the however a better evening as a result so or anybody wanna make a last minute Poyet before we say good night
the so I'm thanks very much let's check when we making any referral about the cuts at all or a just K say that we accept all of them and I I think the comments have been noted I too hadn't personally thought of some myself but if somebody wants to then please the through so now and looking do that yet know from that so
My even to you know a Louisa last item you you had a fugitive genocidaires would go to public councillor
I think I might just put them public accounts and and and and earnest that our Chair sorry it Bill borough
hello pledges said this would be the time to make any refers if there's any serious issues are prone to principle that we've been discussed the night that follies 1 ensure is fed up so the chaired then this will be the time to refer us and a fair if the officer has and to read out loud because I've got to be agreed by the Committee on the night of the Committee and that includes refers regarding those items which was facility put to this committee it's clear perfectly correct and it was put that of the Committee and look at anything beyond the their air what's been allocated so as well as participants individually going to PSA which encourage it may be a give some strength they fare any pounds comments refer was off passed on formally to pay say thank you
everybody wants to write to that following those comments and and to search and to say something and and it is in a broader sense of the budget and we're facing absolutely historic savings and cuts we're gonna have to make never in my Thomas as a Councillor in Lewisham have I ever seen anything as swinging as this and if we don't make these savings that are being proposed because officers have been tasked with huge huge massive overwhelming task in trying to to save money for us we could end up being like Croydon and having a section 1 1 4 are faced against us and I think and points of principle or points of principle but we have to we have to
deliver our bread and butter services and other things are just going to have to go by the wayside we have to look at that realistically as Councillors have to look at the way we operate ourselves as Councillors our own governance structures because we've we've millions of pounds in debt so nothing to give to make millions of pounds of savings and has more to come we just have to be realistic about this
that's all I have to say Joe thanks
a lot of minutes my feeling is only ways that I we know we made comments to officers we hope they're intelligent enough to that's some of the actually do enjoy this or value this process because it helps some sharpened up or what they're doing but I don't have any particular myself or business most than the common sense and things that we have made by take bills point now but there's something were particularly concerned about so I'm just gonna give you a minute and then I think that
that means we can close the meeting there was anything anybody wants to make us a particular recommendation
but I think I would agree with Eva spacing in around
Sir James sandcastle clocks part time work rather than full job loss so that's a recommendation that
the council to look set trying to culinary to thumb older Chair caring sharing yet unfolded but if if if you want to make that recommendation Durant say that Susanna and then we can just agree that and we know we don't have to agree the words now because it's quite clear is that yeah
the effective against it for that because that is looking back all the other the the our conversation since the spin that lots of really good points near this evening I think that's that's one that's across the council and perhaps we could just re flag it up because of the devastation it's it's that's being wrought on many people's lives it's generally important point that I think all councillors would probably support strategically across the Council not just in in sustainable development so that's worth flagging thank you James for bringing it up or clone James as a Christian domes though up I think but are would
suggested this committee recommends cladding here I think they would nods of agreement the place based services rather than stream services are are a potential wing and I think that we are sure that we are supportive of that and the reconfiguration to allow management of areas so town centres are having a single point of contact that deals about I think that would be for me at least a highly welcome this very clear wins I also would like a recommendation actually about the bigger problem and the bigger picture here are losing 500 pounds per resident since 20 10 is a diabolical financial situation that has not been brought on by Miss management of this Council but rather an ideological late austerity cuts are and we need to be very clear with our constituents why things like fly tipping community facilities or support for vulnerable and children at risk all our services are being the kind of we need to have a very strong and proactive Care campaign as Lewisham as the London Borough of Lewisham to make sure every resident knows why this has truly come about and it is not because we are just cutting for the sake of
OK so as to what I'm going to do I'm going to a record that's a recommendation which is very clear I don't think this any fertility referral on the cuts as not taking a cot but I think we can take that James as one as a strong campaign on the reasons for the cuts and the I'd ideal behind it I would like to out a or one that we had about campaign a public awareness campaign on litter and
we know that so that we discussed previously another one so I can talk to Tim off afterwards about the particular wording refer you trust me I think that's quite clear what that is and there before we go got a question from a Luing from Council crops gears can yeah I was actually can I just say what you gonna say and I think that we need some sort of Khan's campaign around and rubbish and personal responsibility arm for the Borough and and I was so I would like to say something about the the 0 my God my brains absolutely gone around the CPS EDS that's it
sometime around the CPS heads and just to say that that's the roll out of the CPS EDS needs to be done with sensitivity and as in a strategic way to to benefit the are plans around an encouraging walking or cycling in the Borough ochre
so last one or think the so certain bits to Ms Parsons to enthuse good time to finish and I think is good meeting I learned a lot own
thank you everyone for your contributions and hopefully see you soon and will make sure we'll have a little zoo meeting about the programme for January I think would be better if we do it another time but going to thankfully match NI author three-match any