Strategic Planning Committee - Tuesday, 17th November 2020 at 7:30pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Strategic Planning Committee
Tuesday, 17th November 2020 at 7:30pm 









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1 Declarations of Interests
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2 Minutes

thank you very much
Good evening everybody and welcome to this meeting of Lewisham council strategic planning committee my apologies for the slight delay because we had a technical hitch way with our webcasting of if only try to started on time my name is Councillor John Pasche I'm chair of the Council's leisure Planning Committee and in a moment I'll introduce you I'll ask the the other voting members of the Committee for also councillors to introduce themselves to young confirm the here and paying attention
for the purposes of this meeting and the visa normal rules which will get land an uncertain stances but at with some additions to cope with the circumstances as meeting online in the way we're doing at the moment the fees can I remind everybody at the meeting to ensure that their their microphones set some use and for officers and members of the public that your camera his off except for the times when you actively participating in the meeting and please do not turn your microphone on unless I invite you to speak
and I will remind everybody that this is a meeting held in public and not a public meeting members of the Committee please leave your camels on all times please ensure that you Romania he shot at all times so that the public receive your painful attention to the the item we're discussing tonight
and fitness remember the meeting is being webcast live so and use that to bear in mind what you are what you display
I will
what will happen we have dealt with the pupil embrace and then what we were dealing with one applications nights and locks the Planning presenting officer to present her reports with her graphics tourists and then we will ask the Africans' representative so addressed the Committee and then we will give objectors to the application the same opportunity to address the Committee so first of all I'm going to ask the
forget Oscar Clark Jasmine to conduct a road callable the members present and mechanism he could then hell on your Mike confirm your present and connected to the meeting and figure so please confirm if you had any declarable interests in the item we're going to be discussing tonight Jasmine overseeing Councillor John Pritchard
his son present and no I don't have any interest to declare in this afternoon
Councillor Neil Gibbons apologies for absence Councillor bone of there
present and no interest to declare Councillor barn
present an interest to declare Councillors Clark
present and no interest to declare thank you Councillor Koran
present and no declarations Councillor Gallaher present and no declarations unfortunately my camera seems to not be working so apologies for that this evening
how the local pub
paragraph noted Councillor Gallaher and New York City's camera
Councillor Ogilvie daywear present there's nothing to declare Councillor shack apologies for absence Councillor well presence nothing to formally declare the just to note I was a former member of the governing Body of Trinity laden and and I have been lobbied by them prior to this meeting thank you
OK thank you and can be officers who are going to be taking an active part in the meeting our Gareth Clegg who is the principal fending off cigars could you justify yourself with your camera on so people Nabua he sanction
yes yes
Michael Forrester who is a major and strategic planning projects manager may well contribute to the advice we get hit the planning terms Michael you the high lesson here

1 Declarations of Interests

OK and finally if we need legal advice we have got Charles merits
how contract Barry striping Charles per se closure people
I I'm here is another thanks from OK thank you very much shelf right there are a number of other officers who you may see apparently present in the meeting for flaying erm backup roles and technical support roles for us tonight so and equally grateful to them right
a couple of families before we start we have got a minutes of the last meeting on the 14th the box hoper record short meeting I think I'd I think we're going to equal last night but those agreed as a true record members and I think I can take a lack of empathy descents as approval
OK any any any any objections or amendments those speak now please
thank you OK those are agreed then
we tell with declarations of interest so we will go on to the substantive item we gonna tonight's agenda which is the planning application for Creekside village east in Cross Street and what we're going to do first is Gareth is going to share his screamed
and here's presentation outlining the application and the key issues that should guide our decisions nights so Gareth proposals
thank you Chair screening
however the application before Members the ceiling is in relation to and a copper streets are known as Creekside Villa east so this slide on at night the application site which is side unread copper strict nice north of the site and the South is Deptford Creek
this slide shows the a patient site in element and the yellow dashed line in the borough boundary so Lewisohn lies to the south of the line of in this area and to the northern side of that area is is all within the Borough of Greenwich
if we are to the next slide here we can see the site in context so I'm adjacent to the site is the existing lobby and building to the north is creeks on Village West be residential development adjacent the site here is union Wharf the recently completed residential development and then Kent warfarin Deptford Creek to the south and application site itself comprises an area of derelict land and together with the existing car park and service yard for Trinity lobbying
so these are just some views of the application site so this looking north towards Craigside fully to west NI derelict structures on the site this looking south across the site
and this is the the frontage to Deptford Creek from a site

2 Minutes

3 Creekside Village East, Copperas Street SE8

Mrs. view looking along Kopra streets of the lobbing building his here and right and then Prix ugly to west and then union Wharf at the at the end of strict again even closer to this the application site here of its frontage Kopra Street and Union Wharf in the distance
and this is looking from the opposite direction on corporate Street with the site's frontage with hoardings and to Kopra Street
so the application site is in three land ownerships the main portion in the centre here his own body akin which is kind Wood and the land in blue is owned by the Council and ocean council and then the area in red which is the car park servant serving transplant is in the ownership of Trinity lock
relating to this application it's important to highlight to Members the planning history because it does have a bearing on this this application is before you this evening
I am so insensitive obviously it's a thousand fall within the committee report Executive sorry but this is the 2 thousand 6 application scheme and which essentially related to the application site together with the adjacent site which has now been developed for union Wharf so back in 2 thousand and 6 to identical planning applications were submitted to the Borough of partnership and also the Borough of Greenwich for a dynamic pricing around 400 residential units and 9 thousand square-metre space and as expansion of Trinity lava
and in relation to the applicant that the site which lie laying within Lewisham
lewisham's Strategic Planning Committee who were minded to approve the application subject to completion of a Section 1 0 6 agreement however due to the financial downturn the developer went into receivership and therefore the sexual Asics agreement was never completed and the decision was therefore never issued and moving on so after the rub went into receivership this part of the land which is now includes ownership outline here in red I'm so required from Cottwood at from the receiver back in 20 15 kind with then submitted a planning application
for for this land so it comprises two blocks at element I rising to 24 stories the that the southern extent Ian residential development the applicant appealed against non determination by the Council and there was then a public inquiry which was held in summer 20 16 and in relation to that the appeal was dismissed by the Inspector and there are a series of key implications of that appeal decision which are just summarised on this slide so firstly the that doesn't 6 minded to grant scheme was found to be material planning consideration albeit that planning permission was not fully granted and
the proposal scheme which was the subject of the appeal appeal represented a failure to master plan and deliver a comprehensive redevelopment across the three various land ownerships
the appeal decision also found that the site was suitable for tall buildings Agnes opportunity Area status and are minded to grant scheme and the consent for union Wharf the adjacent plot and the Inspector also found that the failure to arrive for the expansion needs of alarm and centre represented a missed opportunity in view of its importance to the creative sector so following his appeal decision can't saw council officers worked with Kite Wood entrance allotment bring forward proposals for comprehensive redevelopment of the three land ownerships including provision of facility for Trinity Lobban
and this is the site layout plan of the application is before members the seething so essentially comprises three buildings so building 3 would be the an the expansion of Trinity lather which would be linked to their existing building through a glazed bridge link here buildings 1 and 2 would be the residential towers principally with with commercial uses at ground floor level
in terms of the proposed development comprises 393 residential apartments of these 15 percent I would be shared ownership intermediate tenure which equates to 59 units it also comprises 7 thousand square-metre facility for Trinity Alban completed to shell and core together with a flexible commercial floorspace and substantive new areas of public realm and Creekside route
I'm in terms of scale and massing so building 3 which the Trinity Laban extension would be five storeys in scale I building one which is joined to that would be the tallest element at furtively stories and building to at would be 26 storeys
I this is the proposed ground floor plan before you skip on to the next slide will talk you through the various access arrangements some sense of the residential element own bat Thede to residential cause will be accessed show by the Red Arrows here so towards the Kopra Street Environment pubic role the Trinity Obel extension would have paying its principal entrance here through this public rolling that would connect copper Street with the Creekside writ as this would be a pedestrian route broadening access to the building and then the auditorium space studio space when there would also be a series of commercial units activating the public Raul shall here with a yellow arrows and would also be an area survey showed area for Trinity lobbying which would be retained on this side of the building here and in addition there would be the basement access to 2 car parking beneath the development which will get us from corporate Street here are so if I got X sly so this shows the commercial floorspaces highlighted in blue meal which is providing an active frontage animating the surrounding public rather
I miss slides the basement floor Plan so essentially the basement would comprise parking which is some replacement parking provision for treaty of and given that their existing car park would be lost as part of the development together with an parking for the wheelchair at units within the residential development and cycle parking in some plant
I can get at level 1 serve both faith that the residential use would start a level 1 within both blocks and obviously we've entrance low and you've got the auditorium and the studio space
the residential would continue to work through the various levels until we get to level six so at this stage and will be the top of the Loggan building and that would be so as the communal amenity space for the residential blocks Oby Varrick accessible from and level 6 of building one he providing space for residents to enjoy
symptoms of the facility for 20 Lobban and as mentioned it would do provide just over 7 thousand square-metre the floorspace and which would be provided to shell and core so the 13 point 6 million build costs and offer facility would be met by the developer
subject to fit out that space would accommodate a range of facilities including 150 seat performance venue dance studios rehearsal studios go with workshops in the back of house facilities and would accommodate additional 160 students and circa 30 staff 25 staff posts as part of the drama Tracy lobbying would be contributing its land to advance at no cost and in terms of the fit out costs which are estimated to be circa 15 million pounds at those would be met by Trinity Laba and fire a range of means are OK and then
these images to show some of the the the layout of the the lava building inherit could be fitted out internally so as mentioned it would provide a glazed link at first floor level to existing law and building and which we connect through create her a continuous sweep of the central corridor reflecting the internal corridor in the existing building and these images again just show indicative views of Harry interior could be fitted out obviously subject to to how long and choose to do that
this section plan shows the relationship between building one which is a further storey tower to the building 3 which is joined to can fee lob an extension in some some materiality and design the design of the buildings as four have been inspired by the the Creekside environs or through the use of of aggregates and and materials and also in terms of the the area's industrial heritage and so Calabrian extension itself for that that building has been designed with it would be in concrete panels with own dark course sprayed aggregate finish and which has been designed specifically to provide a contrast to the smooth and semi translucent quality of the existing Loggan and to provide a very strong contrast misses the glazed bridge link corridor which would link two buildings at first floor level
then says the two residential towers they have been designed with very clear base middle and top in terms of urban design and with the the top the crown below the buildings cut away to create her Carter defined she to in the skyline
this is an artist's impression looking across the development from across the creek so the Trinity Larne building the two residential towers and the building to the right there that is union Wharf and which was obviously not part of the application proposal at Spurs the recently completed development
in terms of public realm the proposed development would create over 3 9 thousand square metres of new public Raul answer those spaces include a are predominantly hard landscaped plaza area adjacent Kopra Street there would be a new pedestrian route through from Kopra Street 3 2 Deptford Creek Vierich either lobbing building would be access and would also create any Crick side route and I'm connecting union Wharf across the site and an additional be a large Harry comprising open meadow grassland and hard landscaping providing air benefiting from its south-facing aspect with views overlooking the crook
and this top image here shows that for make a key public space with views across the creek and the site low shows there would also be as from the creek and can towards the relevant that would be on top of the terraces introduced as part of the development of the the replacement of the creek walk
this plan shows the soft landscaping so as frightened of grassland and soft vegetation planting and trees and I've seen within on the roofs of the buildings spaces kept her with amenity space here at level 6 which are common to remotely Thallon in subsequent slide and in terms of hard landscaping the public realm approaches in his spy again by the the Creekside environment with the the range of materials and and course nature of materials seeking to reflect that or Creek environment and the sinuous nature of the the way that the materials of Band of through the through the public realm
in terms of the that the key space or history backed here that this is principal space here overlooking the creek the applicant has provided some detail in terms of how that space could be programmed so it could be used for markets and had to cinema for example and how it would be provided with was appoints electricity points to to provide for a range of uses in future as Arfee animation activation of the public realm
this slide so as well as the the Creekside ring which would be created or through the development site itself as part of the development commitment has been secured would be secured through the Section 1 0 6 agreement to the creation of a additional Creekside Rick which would run through the existing and lob and campus and Kinect through to creak at Kent off so there were gates install when Kent Wharf was constructed so that would provide continuous stretch a Creekside routes all along a stretch of the creek and then connect to union Wharf and the public realm has recently been implemented which extends up to Creek Road
and just for information these are the this is the stretch outside union Wharf that has been recently completed
since I was a communal amenity space for residents and as I mentioned that the principal space would be at level access from level 6 of billing one which sits on top of the roof of the last extension so this will provide both areas are hard and soft landscaping for recreation purposes together with players about infant and junior play and in addition the space would be complemented within building 2 with an additional smaller communal amenity space available for residents and it's important to highlight that an both of these spaces would be accessible to all residents of the development in perpetuity in that provision would be secured through the legal agreement
in some sort of financial viability and affordable housing as set out within the Officer report the viability evidence demonstrates that the scheme can only support 10 percent foldable housing given the 13 point 6 million cost of delivering trim the trees along building to shell and core this viability assessment has been rigorously are satisfied Lewisham's independent viability consultants and their report is appended to the Committee report and also by the GLAS viability expert I'm both concluded that the viability evidence is is correct and that the 10 percent is the maximum that be the scheme can support notwithstanding this they act and has committed to increase the affordable housing offer to 15 percent which would represent 59 shared ownership units however suggests the application being approved the offer would therefore revert 10 percent in the event of a refusal and subsequent planning appeal
so in terms of some of the key planning issues identified within the officer report I am just got some slighted is just a talk you through some of the throws those issues so firstly terms the impact on surrounding developments the impact on designated heritage assets and fully in terms of the impact on the operation Brewery Wharf
Service slices the relationship to the surrounding developments again this is a 3D model showing the relationship of the development of the surrounding blocks so the Crick side four blocks which comprise Creekside rich west and the Two Locks which comprise a union Wharf
this slideshows simply separation distances to surrounding development so a minimum of 10 metres would be maintained to between the union Wharf block that's closest to the site and and a distance of between 15 metres and 18 and 5 metres would be maintained to at as you point which lies north of Kopra streak
this slide shows the NIRO massing of a does your point so as set out within the Officer report and the applicant's daylight sunlight consultants undertook a mere amassing assessment and the purpose of which was to to demonstrate that if if the Oscar Darya point benefit from an open aspect over the undeveloped site so the purpose of the Mirror massing assessment is to demonstrate an alternative base line and if it was a more urban type context and four hours of daylight and sunlight assessments for his image shows that mirror massing and again shows massing at as you Portway to be narrowed and on the opposite side of caught restrict
this slide shows the offset relationship to union Wharf and so the application building billing to year has been offset and which is to meet air issues of privacy and overlooking in relation to union Wharf
again this 3 D die or own demonstrates the relationship between the proposed development 31 was former garage night out recurrent themes to firm
lost contact with the meeting
how officers and can we nurture I'm watching it 0 sorry I saw Liam current left the meeting here on how switch devices cause I'm not working very well OK so are you are you sound only now or on the you stole in videoing contact with us I can put for your contact on this of case you haven't missed anything of the young I can tell us presentation right through to gate sorry at then Gareth carry an absurdly under the IRA to you know this one as well
so this line again Members will recall in the officer report there are a number of issues raised in terms of overlooking of amenity spaces Suicideyear shows some those spaces that are referred to so in relation to this is the union Wharf development here so there is a pocket park has developed as part of union Wharf to the north here so that this space Sonia in addition spaces in yellow shown here are the outdoor amenity spaces for the day nursery which occupies the ground floor of this block of union Wharf so this is the view of that amenity space from the Creekside walk
these slides show her or A-rated the map on heritage assets just to to to to provide that visual for members so this sideshows either view from college way within the Merton gradual heritage site so this is the existing view and so this is the Grade II-listed peeps building which members may recall that referred to in the Officer report in relation to the concerns of historic England and obviously above fisting existing vis-à-vis block here as union Wharf which is visible and this is the Thornham streets her essential tower-block here which is visible and in terms of the proposed development backward effectively sit between both August 2 blocks of both the roofline of the peeps building in the distance
he slides to show that these are the existing relationship and of those two blocks visible from college way as he moved towards Greenwich Tanta
the slide shows the relationship to the setting of the Grade II listed St Paul's Church in Deptford so on this slight here outlined in blue is the proposed development which obviously would be largely obscured by the tree cover in his feet and moving closer towards the charge these views demonstrate that the proposed development would be visible so it can be seen here adjacent the church and here it's outlined in red here and Sargon that that the billing would be visible in in those few points in the relates to the the harm that is referred to in the context within the Officer report and as I don't find being by historic England
and some additional viewpoints so this would be the view from Creek side of the proposed development so just outside Kent Wharf
and this view is taken from corporate Street looking towards the proposed development
and this view is taken from Oldbury street in the conservation area again can towards past fellow HMO would be visible above the refine
and this is just to Salem is the relationship between the application site and Brewery Wharf so as Members will be aware Brewery Wharf his a safeguarded Wharf ham with aggregate facility Sofia loading Vaccaro from barges as a Brewery Wharf is located here just next to the bridge and Creek Road
and the application scheme is here and they're authorisation of immense located in close proximity such as the union was scheme and the recently consented Ravensbourne or scheme which would sit just here adjacent and asked that in the Officer report a the decent is proposed in terms of ensuring no unacceptable impact on the continued operation Brewery Wharf
this report summarises some of the key for the NFZ which Hoosier set out in full within the Officer report so former smallest those is the delivery of the facility for transplant and a shell and core
similarly the development would make a significant contribution towards housing delivery targets within the Borough including with HRA 59 shared ownership units who are also involved the creation of substantial areas of new high quality public realm including the facilitation of a continuous Creekside route to go with the provision of flexible commercial floorspace can arrange a transport
contributions the most significant of which would be a 264 thousand pound contribution towards highway and public realm works to the full Kopra Street
this slide sets out and existing context in terms of Trinity lava and obviously as the case on the conservatories contemporary dance in terms of the existing number of students in an Alsace arises from the key points in terms of law once existing community outreach and participation work per with Lucian community the last bullet point there highlights the economic impact of Lobb and within the Borough zest well within the local area is estimated to be around 33 million parent
this report sets out some of the key benefits of the larval expansion Surrey would accommodate an additional under the 60 students and contributing to the local economy
up to 30 thousand full-time equivalent jobs and then also officials at the expansion of love and programme of community engagement and outreach and as part of the sexually 6 Hetty times a Community Use Agreement is proposed home again the detail of which is set out within falling the the report
as mentioned obviously that the second most expensive terms as set out in full at the end of the report however I felt which is helpful just to to highlight some of the key at a Tony relating to Tracey Loggan answer include a commitment the truth Longley would occupy and fit out the building upon it's completion to shall I call and also include the community use agreement as mentioned previously and trigger point to ensure the delivery of the building
yes responded the next slide so in conclusion as detailed within the Officer report thedevelopment would would result in nearer to find Hance intensive impact on designated heritage assets and only amenity of occupiers some surrounding developments in particular however on balance officers consider that the substantial public benefits of the scheme would outweigh this harm as such the officer recommendation is to approve the application subject to GLA referral and completion of the legal Agreement
thank you
or back very much gap had Hucker asked members of the Planning Committee now if they heavily questions they want to ask Gareth if you could indicate in the chatty in the usual way through the dark and with the other question what I think would be useful his employee could gather together any questions we have regarding the design issues the physical impacts and so on and they in any questions we have about the economic issues around this proposal
and the the legal agreement and both those parts of it rather than the purely fiscal planning bits I can see Councillor Karon and Councillor Clarke both asking questions so Councillor Karney go first please OK Earth thanks very much Chirk and you hear me OK to statistic after so Sir suitable I just wanted to ask about the copper Street itself on familiar with it it's very narrow to actually drive down affect its food difficult erm is barely space for two
cars to pass each other and one side is has got cause permanently parked so if you can imagine it generally speaking only one Cotton pursued down the street time so any or plans to widen this corporate Street the carriage way and the footpath and if not I would strongly recommend that there is because it's incredibly tight I'm surprised that I don't know I haven't read the asked the part of the report that soaks about comments by Highways or the Fire Brigade but I've been chested in there and also a possibility of expanding the end of it by union Wharf to include a turning circle because I think officers who have been there will will be familiar with that tightness of that road sets the first question
a second question is about the public access so you can as I see you've said you walk down from Creek Road or along the public bit behind union Wharf and then
in the future people to walk alongside a creek or the cadet for creek to the end of this development do you have to think turn back in to creep Creek side or is in is that that any future development so you can walk further along the creek of you hit the end their of private developments and a third question is
properly for the benefit of those watching what in your views if we refused this application what would your erm
do you think would happen next to simplify it that's my three questions just sorry that they're quite lengthy but all pertinent and also I do have another question about the recommendations themselves but I think they might be better off in another part of the meeting if you want to leave those to that the discussion we had after incur from the Africa they're all happened says that probably affected have Gareth you on to tackle low those then although it if you fail to predict the future and we're not going for how go against you
can't extent and yesterday firstly in terms of the utmost helplessly factor certainly screen again
yeah so in terms of signage attack you can see the inside the last man yet and so sorry I should have mentioned in terms of the that the proposal is actually proposing a turning head so he ICU camp you actually correct in that there is no currently no turning head at the end of Kopra Street and so this would be proposed here and which would serve as a turning head for vehicles for large vehicles so Road so could I just ask their sorry don't lose the thrill is is that really a publicly accessible or because sometimes a facts owned by the LA band centre though so you can't turn round there in a on their land
no service will be publicly accessible to there would be an SUV retractable bollards at this point here but everything young that would be publicly accessible and and it's for further discussion as part of the section 2 7 8 agreement with Highways but I think the applicant has suggested that could be offered for adoption potentially so so badly any case provision would be secured Jalen it was public accessible at all times for those purposes and in terms of this shift the the width of Kopra Strae and again I obviously we recognised that the copper Street is narrow and it's fairly constrained by the extensive on street parking on the northern side of copper Street and because the Borough boundary runs along Kopra Strae has been hit a historic agreement under the Highways Act that Greenwich are responsible for management or Kopra Street and terms the actual highway and we've as Arthur discussions on this application we've had discussions with Greenwich's high-res team
obviously to facilitate the the works required in the delivery of public realm works and highway works to Kopra Street and Greenwich have agreed in principle at that we could carry out those works so that presents an opportunity obviously the Antrim's aware of for there have been proposals which have been drawn up intensive master plan for public wrong next to Creek site and the idea is that those public realm works would essentially be extended along corporate Street and facilitated by the financial contribution of this development would make silly that and also make a contribution of 30 thousand pounds towards a controlled parking zone or restricted parking so and potentially through that would be an option to actually look at some of the existing unrestricted on-street car parking along Kopra Street and obviously if that was considered to be a barrier to movement then that could prevent a means to to to address that
tonight the Trust a further clarification of
in those discussions in the same with the chance of funds being available the actual carriage way could be widened no sorry I think in terms of the character we know that there isn't any scope to to widen carriageway and and the existing footway on south side is quite narrow so again I think acute you don't really have scope to widen the carriage way but obviously with the potential removal of some of the car parking there is scope to you know to increase the amount of useable road space but notwithstanding that all of the the swept path analysis undertaken by the Atkins higher-rate sorts of which been reviewed by Irish T demonstrates the larger vehicles including emergency service vehicles can access and based on the existing and provision that I mean that is the case so union Warth union waterfowl at which is located at the far end of in Greenwich all of fat is serviced by a couple of street so again refuse vehicles and purposes of emergency service will access PFI Kopra Street
Sir say they did this in advance of except to improve the situation and would also provide this turning head facility which again would would improve the situation
and then intensively public access on the creek if I just go back to this on the slide
yes sir of see there's the theistic stretch which has been put in as part of union Wharf that will continue through the application site and there would then be a gate installed but through that there would be a connections through the lobby and campus and to Kent Wharf and any reason why a gaze is proposed here at this location so if you can see on this image here so the last building it's this that it was never anticipated when the last building was designed that they would be public access along this side fronting the Crick
and the materials that the Low carbon Building are made of this translucent material are actually not the most robust of materials and could be susceptible to damage or vandalism so lobbying are concerned that if there was an restricts access throughout the evening and night along this stretch the building could be subjected damage or vandalism in that in that context therefore they are proposing that they would be gates installed here that would just mean simply outside of Dubya outside of the biscuit of it of an evening and night time hours of darkness with the hours to be agreed that access will be restricted on that small stretch true alarm and campers but for the majority of the data and daylight hours there would be continuous access through this path the site and through to come off and beyond Kent Wharf there is an application which is currently pending consideration and forward Son Wharf and which would also involve a stretch Creekside Richard and they all continuous route down to towards sorts the bridge
OK my question about if a members were to refuse this application
are happy I came a lot Seneca army simply that mind summing either there could be a reason expectation that the applicant may seek to appeal that decision or so they have the right to do that and in relation to the affordable housing issue and as mentioned my presentation the African have made clear the offer of 15 percent affordable housing which is an enhanced offer is subject to the scheme being approved and if and scheme ought to be refused that offer would revert to the 10 percent offer which is what the viability evidence demonstrates the maximum that the scheme can reasonably support by alight noted that as well I mean I do think I do think it is a useful question really useful consideration for us limbers because obviously we we we have to think about the alternatives
where we don't Grant permission and and it's not granted on appeal as well then we've got think will what what could the go there what would we approve of going there
I'm sure that was part of the point of your question Councillor current part partly tree so thank you for one final point and whilst I have the floor if I may future his arm the public access bit and I just want to put a marker down that I would like us to consider making looking at ways to make the access 24 7 along
Deptford Creek
I think I would support that so if we if we make a pedestrian routes I think it's he undermine confidence in it if it if at some point the people might not know in evening it's it's going to be closed and that that would be her own or the caretaker's days off Chair I think that it had not been locked anyway length the if I could just out her
following that facetious notes but a genuine one is that obviously anything we suggested addressed the Lance concerns about damage to the fabric of their building I'm sure that a solution is is available
I hope I can't help agreeing with you right OK I'm gonna go to Councillor Clarke now you you are next and then I got Councillor Barnaby nobody else has so far anything that's not already been pre-empted for you by Councillor Karon far away is thinking I was going to ask about the access and but I was going to ask more the fact it is going to go across several people's land and who would actually have the ownership and would it be permanent public access so sort of touching on a similar thing but
what I was thinking was that in the future would access public access be able to be rescinded along that frontage cause it's quite important to have access along the front of the of that area and so I was going to ask about how that would work for the future is something that would be absolutely definitely open to public access for pump permanently rather than you know just for a period of time and could it be cut off at a letter debt by any any ownership the second thing was actually the design of the building because the land is obviously it was an award-winning building
I know this has been covered to some extent but I did think it seemed to be in a very dark palette and and that seem to jar slightly with the the development next to it and also I would like a comment on the design because I didn't think it was now standing design next to an outstanding the an outstanding building as I was wondering if you could comment on that or the density of the residential units I was curious because I understand it doesn't quite fit with them we would have for required in our local plan
and it's that are almost double the density that we would normally expect and I just wondered if he could comment on that and the daylight and sunlight I note has been covered in the report but there seems to be quite a difference in in from the objections to our actually our view of the daylight and sunlight I just wondered if he could also come back to me on that thank you
On quotable
self-esteem Saturday the public access on the crease hard route yes that would definitely be secured in perpetuity and so there will be secured through the legal agreements of the Section 6 Agreement which provides the provision of secure that in perpetuity so and obviously in the event that you know for everything that was stopped up and the Council has recourse particularly action to ensure that it is re reinstated as a public routes close that that would be definitely included in me such an Essex agreement in terms of the design of the building
and if I'm going to share my screen again
stemmed from him yes inserted materiality as I mentioned the this was deliberate design 10 a range of options were looked at obviously this has been subject to to discussion on several occasions with Lewisham's Design Review Panel and the design of the the the lava and building and using that Darpa material was was considered to be the best course of action because it provides such a deliberate in strong contrast to the the existing building or see the Crick side village west of elements the Norse or
replicates to an extent the the bankers or semi translucent smooth glazed nature of the of the lobbing building and so the intention of the materiality here Mr. take a deliberately contrasting and approach and Disorder Craig that boldness in contrast between the two architectural styles I think in in certainly in in in in from I expect I consider a the proposal represents a high quality of design that that it is appropriate for this for this landmark site
and then in terms of density yes you're correct in terms of surface stopped showing a screen
in terms of density you are correct and in terms of the the allocation of the site within the TP Site Allocations Plan but it does exceed the density identified in within the plan however of itself isn't necessarily it we often see developed carry forward on our exercise for a higher density than was initially identified in an eponymously withdrawal quite a number of years ago and the development site does lie within a designated opportunity area or the principle of high density development is supported and it's also accessible live appearance public transport means and also in terms of the planning history that has obviously established the principle of of high density development on this site that was the 2 thousand 6 minded to grant scheme which included a 22 storey tower on this part of the site and Sunday the the 20 15 scheme at appeal and the inspector didn't raise any particular issues with the with the the quantum of Lance not scale columns in that context so so so the principle of a higher incidence on his site has been established again in the context of the direction of the London Plan and the the intended publishable in plan whether his heading and moves away from a strict application with density matrix and and looks this should be responsive to site context rather than herbalist simply simplification of her evidence he matrix o then informs the daylight sigh issues again obviously darkest they're addressing insignificant detail within the the report I mean obviously a lot of the the concerns raised particularly I think in relation to the occupiers of Crick's iVillage west and also some fall union Wharf and who have been most affected by the proposed development and I think the report sets out that that the impact to to some of the units are facing the site would obviously be significant so some Saura's actually in its would see quite a significant reduction in their levels of daylight and sunlight
however for the reasons set out in the report and those so those units are currently however an introverted view across the application site and in the context of a more typical urban environment
that the levels of daylight work that could be reasonably expected I think for its of for reasons a thousand again having regard to the that at the planning history and the idea that this on this side was always envisaged for development it it was always going to come out in the final site to be developed essentially going on this stretch of Kopra Strae so I think for all those reasons we hires officer as a concerted view that that whilst there would be significant impact in relation to certain units within his blocks that the weighing those Wayne that impact against face of standard public benefits which this scheme will deliver in my view thank those benefits would outweigh the harm in that regard
how could your Brechin alpha at yes thank you very much out of I I've got Councillor Olivier indicate things
kevin's coming pleasure thank thank you Chair at no regard you said in your shocking in fact of to selling your last answer now that so the impact of this development is outweighed but all are outweighed by the that that there's substantial public benefit now now one of those of obviously is the public benefit trends lab and no doubt we will test that later on in this meeting but then as then as the issue of affordable housing in this case affordable housing is being offered as shared ownership which is you know perhaps not as affordable as it is in other regards now we're being offered 50 per cent in this case and interesting you said in your introduction would link the impact for refusal I had a look at the report and of course paragraph 1 9 1 her initial viability reporters at the they're relying on is is 10 percent this will make doing it but because of the so-called political desire that are prepared to up to 15 percent now of course are aspiration is Boro's 50 per cent re trying it's close to that as much as we can not always possible in fact very very very hard to achieve that but of course the Mayor of London has 35 per cent I'll take the point about 20 land to one side but were interests me is is actually this point about this effectively a sweetener saying all got 15 per cent if you agree this but if you don't then we'll go we'll go back 10 per cent and of course a GLA one happy either but 15 percent I'll be happy with but the former decision we made a stage 2 why won't understand is
have the GLA sort of said that that the al-Qaida formally grit at stage 2 or they reserving a position so my point being is if we were to agree this tonight for example July could come in to say well actually you know it 15 percent you know we're not happy with that either so you know the whole point is are you know
what what what deal with with them with affordable level is gonna be you know is it gonna be yum is it really 10 percent is viable or is actually 15 percent something are put to develop but I wanted to stand the GLAS position from you
yes you intend to that point so as to the viability evidence and it was also be submitted and then assess be subject to scrutiny both are the Council's appointed in any consultants and also by the TLS viability expert and that has all concluded that 10 percent is the maximum that the scheme could deliver in terms of affordable housing whilst giving the required level of of developer return that here that could be reasonably expected and the applicant recognises us here the and sorry to stretch by the key reason for is essentially because this development is is is incurring a cost of 13 point 6 million in terms of delivering the facility for Trinity lava and that bays essentially the reason why they the 35 percent policy compliant afford rising Parisian can't be achieved on this scheme and again the GLAS viability Consulting found that if that fatty and 6 million worth be alternatively directed then the scheme would broadly be into sport around 35 percent affordable housing surveys obviously that the reason why it can't provide more than
10 per cent in viability terms
sir notwithstanding now established viability position and the applicant in in in seeking to try to promote this recognises that there's a political desire for an improved her affordable housing offer ample they'd made the offer of increasing up to 15 percent and and the reason that they would do that it doesn't undermine the viability evidence it simply means that the developer would be prepared to accept a reduced developer return from what they would normally be expected to achieve and also reflects the fact obviously if they were to and are going down the route of refusal and appeal and the time scales and costs associated with that there would be significant costs and time implications therefore the developer Koons' as made that decision to to offer that as a as a 15 percent obviously if it was to revert to with the allocations refused it would revert 10 percent which is obviously guilty viability evidence has demonstrated his is the maximum reasonable that the scheme could support in terms that GLAS position and I think the GLA responded in terms of the 15 percent offer and said I think that they they welcome the increase from 10 to 15 percent
I don't think I think essentially they they have they are reserving a positions of ago during the stage II referral will obviously be up to cheer as to whether they decide to call the application in but some yet
does not address your questions yeah I'd not I could see the logic there the still with a sword of Damocles over ahead there but some but yeah I see I see your point and I see where the GLA coming from asking questions or for the applicant OK we get we're going to hear from their the applicant or or an architectural representative of the applicant Hugel but also for a representative of law that them and Kassabova you obviously hit the nail squarely on the head there this is a because of political sweetener if you lot like Tim both ourselves and the Mayor of London because we have to if it's going to happen we have to agree to the Mayor of London has to agree to it or they have to take it to appeal
so the decision we've got to make is is is the benefit the indirect benefits to the Lothian and all of that might achieve worth feet at the loss of what would normally be the murderer public benefit of more for the House
right I don't see any more councillors indicating in the Czech they had questions of the Planning officers I think next we will go an ear from the applicant and just get to the bottom my screen with the right notes on I believe that we're going to have a presentation for five minutes and skiver and from Simon Chadwick on behalf of A C Planning who are fanning consultants or the applicant or yams Chadwick
e yes I am certainly can hear me I can hear you and I can see just how hold on a moment I have no I'm going after profess about disturbs your questions even go before me 0 OK fine and and also I was going to say a professor Anthony bound who is representing Trinity laden I'm Professor bound are you are you with this
I am Chair can you hear me occupy can hear you but I yes and I can see you as well OK you're you're loud and clear that and why I think it's been explained to already for of we're going to give you jointly with Mr. Chadwick the 5 minute slot to present your of case additionally to everything in the application and then members will almost certainly want to ask you questioned some very searching questions
about the issues that he will be heard us discussing so far away and I'll learn did you want me to tell you when your time's up or when to an odd minutes of its upper anything like that if I if I ever run Plaistow and hoping I won't shy Sarkic of Marius church-like shall I tell you when you had two and a half minutes of it thank you yes dropped although OK on thank you thank you Chair for the opportunity to speak on behalf Trinity Lovat and over 1 thousand 200 students and staff who share support for these proposals you know it was up 13 years in two weeks ago that we were last in front of the Strategic Planning Committee and at that time you were minded to grant consent on a scheme that included us sadly it didn't happen and were back 13 years later so it's good to be here
a combination of government cuts to higher education Brexit and COVID-19 have made this development absolutely essential to secure our future as an organisation
put simply we face an existential threat to our very existence
to be financially sustainable we need to attract more students to meet the shortfall in funding and the only way we can do this is to increase the size of our facilities
the government cuts to our funding have been punitive and together with rising costs may that this new performance centre is now absolutely vital to our sustainability but with it we can thrive
whilst as the principal of Trinity lobbying I need to safeguard the future of this world renowned Sandra excellent we have been part of Lewisham for 45 years and I stand here today to present what we see as a major opportunity for the borough as a whole
because in addition to modern studios and a concert-hall these proposals mean major investment job creation
and an economic boost and that's beyond the 30 million pounds we already contribute each year
in addition we have set out a legally binding package of local commitments to greatly expand our community outreach programmes and those programmes already reach over 12 thousand people and many of those from Lewisham's most socially excluded communities it may is amongst other things that half of all schools in Lewisham will be offered free opportunities for music and dance activities and a minimum of 3 thousand young Lewisham residents to be registered to work with us
this is about aspiration and hope at a time I young people need it the most and finally in 2 thousand and 22 Lersch and will take up the mantle as London Borough of culture in recognition of this I would urge members to see evening to vote to support one of your boroughs biggest cultural assets and ensure that we can continue to train and inspire thousands more young people for many more years to come thank you thank you and then Chadwick living early Chen yet fine Anki
tell Members you will see from the date of this planning application that's preparation including the pre-application process submission and consideration has been taking place for well over 3 years sometimes the length of time and determination of complicated applications arose the enthusiasm of applicants and the planning authority teams however I want to ensure committed that the enthusiasm with the applicant's and Tridgell urban to develop deliver this development remains a strong as it ever was
circle is very comprehensive and deals with the complex issues related to this development in a fair way recognising the strong support from key consultees on that as like design affordable housing provision far ability but it role and technical matters we'd wholly endorse the overall conclusion that's a balanced conclusion that the scheme provides a policy compliant comprehensive regeneration of a long derelict brownfield site for housing affordable housing employment public realm and notably of course the new educational and cultural facilities for Trinity Lobban who will clearly benefit lotion residents I will not take a Bixi time and go through the details of the scheme as the offer support does that same to say that this will offer real benefit to Lucian residence those benefits relate not just to the bringing forward of the site which has long been anticipated being regenerated but also providing large proportion of the Council's annual requirement for housing
economic benefits expenditure on local services from new residents are high standard of public realm and amenity provision and the cultural and educational benefits arising from the improvements to the Trinity Lawn building such benefits as your officers conclude substantially outweigh any potential harms from the development overall chairman the officer's report before you and this planning application is a combination of the applicant's team and your Council's own project team working collaboratively for some three years to get to the point where this scheme with all its complexities can be supported in terms of the planning design and other issues that you've to start and heard from Garforth leg
we therefore respectfully request that you resolved to grant planning permission so that the scheme can move to stage 2 and from that point I can assure you of our clients commitment to develop deliberate in a shorter timeframes possible thank you very much
OK thank you
thank you by right I am sure Members would you like to indicate you got questions Councillor Monrovia thank you only suggested that you want to carry on your questioning probably EU at press around burst if you want to go first and will seek to reverse indicates
social here Council of Barnett
sorry I puzzles me so yeah I think come Simon professor of and I think you could see was coming from in my my question officers are obviously you know that the test for us is is is that the public benefit now Bisley firstly are and you know I'm not happy with the as a as we both called it now the Chair myself as the sweetener approach in in the 4 thousand sorry thing if you can you show it shows where you know if you can show will and determination you can do it and so I expect that to be consistent and that really are really want to get to the nub above the public benefit I don't know if who've you can aren't this so it 13 point 6 million pounds is public central we're talking about here
and we were told by officers that would bring about 35 D'Equivalent 55 percent of affordable was affordable and as affordable as we all know in as many people go through that so in terms of sort of now you may not be returned to snipe but involved him and his carcasses be done but I would quite like to know in terms of ha how many that's all affordable units are we talking about here in in into whichever number you take one and I mean by that I mean London affordable rent or or or or or equivalent of social housing
Potemkin had a go and Turner passable on on the money I got a lot of our ability advisers and I think I can probably help a little bit I can't
firstly can I just I I probably able to just comment a little bit on the I understand we are coming from on the even when you describe as a sweetener I just perhaps a little bit of context without repeating Garrick Clough said the viability assessment that was done into the the repeal the Act the application scheme with 10 percent affordable housing was done by reputable organisation who who put that exercise into Lucian's own consultants on the GLA and I'm I'm sure you're fully where they they would take a fairly rigorous approach to these things and the conclusion was as garrotted the scheme as submitted with the the costs validated and the all the rather than inputs of that validated was right to conclude that the scheme that only before 10 percent affordable housing and it's this one of those occasions where the advisors advising both to the applicant and the GLA and and the Council of the agreed on on those matters now as far as the the additional
the the 50 per cent it this concern that that came about in relation to discussions with the GLA officers about the likely approach to the GLA to a scheme would 10 percent affordable housing in it and the discussions on that was something like well the GLA possibly would be separate more supportive of the application if you could increase affordable housing ignoring the viability figures and Garre said that was a
political political adviser and put it in those terms
as far as the applicants are concerned
this clearly an incentive for any applicants get at the major scheme like this through without the cost of the delay of an appeal
and currently the delay on appeals is probably 8 9 months I would think and getting a decision and there are costs involved dinner and appeal among scheme of this one which will be significant and
so the the applicant's took the decision well if we can
get support when the GLA recognised that they would be more supportive rather than objecting and we can avoid an appeal that's and negotiation
and that was the basis of it and that's why if we do have to go to appeal and then present this is not a threat to suggest that the real world if we have to go to appeal and the a we might well be the nine month delay and probably 6 dated cost for doing an appeal so in it is to be fair to July I respected their negotiating position so that's why we went to we have in in terms of trying to conceal your second question they I think that the views of all the the experts on the only viability was that
thinkers Gareth Clegg alluded to if if there wasn't a 13 point 6 million cost to the scheme arising from the lead in the building of the Trans-Alaska facility you would be able to achieve something around 35 percent affordable housing and that was that was certainly the view of the Mr. solar will whose GLAS
Portuguese delays but he was the viability and passed to the GLA so the the 30 the the 35 percent provision I don't think we did go as far as saying within the 35 percent there be extra SEN rent why percent
shared equity but there was the general view was this is equivalent that the benefit of delivering the cost of the of Trinity Laban plus 10 percent affordable housing is the equivalent of 35 percent 30 percent of their bat and that that was that came out of the discussions and it's it's noted so at La answers your question thank you OK thank you thank you every night and I think that's
the key question there Councillor Karen laughing ere your next thing Councillor Walsh and Councillor born
Councillor Karon thank you very much Chair Fussell thank the I'd like to thank the Le Bon to for coming and or bring their presentation and to also urged what a great is tution and asset to the bar I think it is now you've heard me earliest talking about public access along the creek and earn when we look at all the developments along the Thames some of them we could argue about whether the desirable or not but one of the greatest assets and outcomes over development along the Thames post industrialisation is public access on the Thames-side path enabling people everyone to enjoy the river side all times of the day I do understand the concerns of the Lovano censor about not rushing to or suffer any damage but
if you think about it gets dark at three o'clock in the after noon in the winter so technically you could we know what a closed the gates much earlier and also and I think that vandalism does take place in daylight as well so I would very much hope
that's Le Bon would be minded to seeking a solution where we could come up where the building is protected I'm sure there is a fencing scheme that could do that and public access is guaranteed and it would be wonderful in the spirit of public service like Laverne and the council to make sure that the public can access the creeks I path are all the all the time and so I would very much hope to hear some positive tone from the LA band team on that and bearing in mind when I would like the Council to explore how how much we can
ensure that that is included in the final arrangements for the construction
thank you
I wonder whether Professor mammals to take that question Councillor Khan
yes cannot correspond thank you Councillor current for that and then I have to say that as well as being the principle of transitional and I'm also a local resident and I completely understand the aspiration I too want to walk along the creek the whole length of the creek as the tense path is so fantastic if I could just explain the the issue to give everyday context councillors and ever be listing on the other webcast
Lewisham's made possible our location for the land and building originally because you moved your recycling centre from that site so that we could build the lob and building and of course it went on to win the Stirling prize for architecture so it wouldn't happen without lotions help
when we had the international architectural competition to find world-class architects we have six finalists on their old world class names and every one of them apart from her soccer and a moron who we finally chose
face their buildings onto the creek because as we know everybody loves water Riverside C side Oceanside and they will face the creek hurts opened a moron didn't face the Craik they face their building on to our community of Bedford it's actually centered on samples church and we chose them we built the building and it won the Stirling prize for architecture that because we faced onto Deptford rather than the creek the side wall as you soaring out presentation is very very close a couple of metres away from the edge and it has to be a plastic building which you can cut with a knife fence or burn with cigarette ends and because when we moved in there as you know it was a complete area of their election there was nothing there we were the first building in in the course regeneration has happened then mayor Dave Sullivan gambled rightly and you all did that cultural led regeneration would happen to the area and it's happened but we but it wasn't Eric direction so we had a mesh fence but still exists a 2 metre high mesh fence which we owe at 6 30 of them all in when we open and we closed at 11 o'clock at night when we close to stop people in the night time hours the five signal of bragging into the building
so that's the issue and are two completely get the aspiration and workforce will will work together I think there needs to be an architectural solution to this problem otherwise we will it even if you spray graffiti on it when you take the graffiti off it takes the the solar stuff off the surface which banks it vulnerable then you know so it's it is a delicate building it was designed to have a fence round it when it come up with a solution but I'm sure we can I'm sure we will thank you
thank you
I think in in in that respect I gather that the advice of Planning officers who beamed faffing about it Monk themselves is that it should be possible to find this into something collectively
one of the heads of an additional ahead of the 1 0 6 agreement that we could agree to add if we minded to approve it and I think we to put the agreed to trust officers to draft the detail of that
it does have some other Katy you learn
I think you're saying you're saying Yes well being muted sorry making the classic he jotted gusted religion my microphone off the follow just I would like to to obviously just to put down a marker that we can discuss this at the Inner coming to recommendations Gore yes yes yes absolutely we can remind me if I forget what you
I'm sure I could see all the other Members nodding and seeing that everyone seems to be but of like minded are fleeing until that will get broad support for Members if we get no will be other issues right a character that Councillor Walsh next and counsellor born games go ahead
thank you very much Chairman thanks for the presentation to are Africans zipping I'm going to be straight and honest and say that I'm I am still on the fence about this application we're being asked to he about social housing in return for so social investment in our community and YAAKS I'm there a couple of things I've still have patterns of it so what is the land value
for the piece of land that Trinity Le Bon owners because
as far as I'm concerned developers Ahmad's pay for land and and
that hasn't been factored in because they giving over the last the peace giving over the land to a developer to this development
and in return they're getting a shell building for so I would like quite know what the the loan market value is of a piece of Landimore Trinity Le Bon's getting out of it and then I also kind of once know a little bit more about some of the things that have been e-mailed to us today so we received from the applicant an outline document her of some of the benefits
of riches for 10 percent of together and I don't accept that 10 percent of at 10 percent of the cohort of children are being involved in trench Le Bon's Junior programme aged 11 to 18 and also 13 to 18
moving back to Lewisham residents
that seems quite low the name for a Programme was based in a bar actually Memorial effort God have been shouting about if I was 100 percent honest I would expect to be much much higher I also expect there to be some other metrics as well so Sir Lenny Henry a former resident of Lewisham has said on many many occasions about the the lack of opportunity for black young people to get involved into the arts and I quite like see some metrics around black young people thing involved Trinity while and making sure that they have the opportunities to access this is not just being taken up by a more privileged community with inside Lewisham finally I'd also like to say that I would for next so what have you but also somebody who has been on the governing body is always seem to feel like Trinity lob with has been more connected to Greenwich then to at the London Borough of Lewisham and we have seen to put in quite a lot in the festered to attract a lot over the female over many many years now so are giving you the original site to begin with and also an EIA staff from up and briefing a sizeable chunk of money as well for your rectum design competition actually the piece of land that trying to the Bana's her handing over to the relevant tonight was originally Lewisham council land are now putting together another piece of land to help this come forward and will also giving up an social housing or potential for social housing to enable this to happen so what commitments the we have to the profile of Lewisham being connected to the work trickle of are in a much much greater way going forward
better bowel I think that's over you I think it is clear yes there thank you Councillor Walsh while I mean ultimately you have a very difficult decision because you are you are comparing apples with oranges Are new you're you're weighing up the the the benefit of the lost housing with the benefit of of supporting Trinity laden and
I can't I can't help you with that I all I can do is promote what we do and we do a great deal and attracted to spend a couple of minutes just make sure everybody understands what Trinity Lobban is to start with and you're right it wouldn't have happened in Lewisham without the support of of Lewisham who sold us the land at less than best consideration so we did buy the land but we didn't pay the full commercial price and that made it possible
but in return we have an organisation now with a turnover of 28 million pounds a year employing 600 odd people and the economists have worked out that the benefit to Lewisham of of our students spending our staff spending and all of that thing that you do when you have a company based in an organisation in an area is worth 33 million pounds a year so if we're not there anymore that's a loss of 33 million pounds to the local area economically and then there's all the loss of the the things that we do to the community so very briefly what we are where a small higher education institution that we're a small university but very small we have about 1 thousand 200 higher education students and we do three things the first is that we do research like University does and I hope that Lewisham will be proud because in research where kind of world famous in some areas and at the last judgment of university research across the UK that the 2 thousand 14 ref 100 percent of our impact from research was judged to be three star and four-star that's internationally excellent and world class so a major force in research in our areas of Ms conducts the second area of course his higher education we offered shin through to PhD in our subject areas of music and dance and musical theatre and some of our alumni you know a world famous and our Employability is second to none over 90 percent people get in professionally important employment when they graduate but the real focus tonight is our community benefit and activity and in that area we do more than any other Conservatoire in the country and certainly any other higher-education provide a university in any of the south-east London boroughs and probably the whole of London because I work is immense just to give you an idea of scale economically in our learning and participation work that's the workless not with higher education students this is the wordless with the local community whether it's young people or older people we
just over 3 million pounds a year now lotion contribute to that lotion contributes about 50 thousand pounds a year at the boat and were grateful for that contribution it's actually more than the Greenwich contribution but that's 50 K and we spend 3 million pounds on our community benefit and serves of young people we work with just over 10 thousand last year was just over 11 thousand young people this is not our higher education students this is young people under the age of 18 about 11 thousand terms of people coming into the larval building so are focused on Lewisham now not Lewisham and Greenwich coming into the lava building over 600 come in every Saturday
and of that 600 odd number of people that come in to do our activity 64 percent of them are lower sure residents and over half of that number over 50 per cent and then some classes 70 or 80 percent Ba Ba ME community so they're not middle class white people they're representative of our local area and in addition to those classes for for Dance for hip-hop and all those things we worked with 40 Lewisham schools every year we worked with 30 primary schools and about 10 secondary schools we have the talent of programme that you refer to where earlier this is the programme for talent people will identify talent to give the professional training and that's where that number came from that seem quite low but am personally you quoted earlier this is for an auditioned programme so we have to get them up to the level where they can do the talented work which is why it's a relatively low number compared to the thousands that we work with across the board and that we do work with older people we work with last year about 500 people above the age of 60 in our inspired not tired programme and then we work with people in health areas so we have a whole hell of a range of health products we have Bellingham beats where we work in Bellingham offering free crated dance classes for five to 13 year olds we have dancing for health that is free dance classes for adults with brain injuries we have pulse which is an activity for children combining cookery and danced to combat obesity we have a whole range of programmes meeting the needs of thousands of young people as I say the cost is 3 million pounds a year now
up let me just end by saying because of the economy because of the government cuts to our institution we've lost a million pounds in the last four years in government funding this is actually an existential threat to our very existence so I think you really do need to judge not just the extra benefit that will come if you grant this but the potential that Trinity Lobban won't exist if you don't because I am in a position where I need more students to pay the fixed costs the high fixed costs of the Conservatoire I can only do that bear by recruiting more students from around the world third of our students are internet and I can only do that with extra facility so it's a bit like the range is vast you brought the application we thrive we do more even the we're doing at the moment and there's a possibility this is not a threat but there's a genuine possibility that if this doesn't succeed and we can't expand we might not exist in a few years' time
sharif thickness at enough thank you thank you very much yeah yeah I think that's make the point clear I just sorry of The Devil's another element in once got it back with the land because your heart but make sure over Trinity are getting before you do games can I just make the point in case I I forgot to include in my preliminary remarks I want to make it clear that
nobody presently in this meeting should use the chat panels who make any kind of arguments they should disregard the by members of the Committee if you see any arguments in his only to be used for purposes of managing the meeting such as indicating that he wished to speak
I'm sure there's clear now to everybody present
Mr. Shapwick out where you are trying to get some answers for agriculture and up to her first Council officers as part of the question he raised about then consideration of the land value of the Trinity Llanfynydd incorrectly
all I can say is in the the viability assessment that was submitted there was an allowance or evaluation made or what's called benchmark land value for the Trinity love and land based on its it's used as a car park because that's how it's Valley for these purposes and the figured public document is the figure that was used to benchmark land value was one
back to officers about that the Fab calculable yes carry her carry on with the that subsequent Russian he were own report you so that that would so I'm got to put the weakest clarity there is a 12 million pound investment but I do want to make sure that as the land is not valued just as as a car park when it's being put together so I do want to potentially ask officers her a little bit more about that to make sure the Trinity's alarm and is getting it's it's true value for this because this is something that we need to if we are going to support this project the only son of benefit really is about investing in this world class leading her higher education institution and I want to make sure that they're getting best value out of it so I might easily go follow up but officers charity Kemp a prep perhaps you could rather than bring officers in now can you hold onto that bring back one we're of having further discussions with officers after we've heard from finished here from the applicant and heard from the objectors as well on trying to manage the time meeting as well I OK Shuey kicked can you
can you bear with that bright OK I've got some Councillor born next and then Councillor Clarke Councillor born are you a figure with us in audio form only an EU the position I am and don't you can let me Acacia yeah yeah yeah fine to me fit my colleague Councillor boast actually covered most of my question in regards to the community programme but there is one additional point I wanted to to flag up with the Professor as cabinet member for culture and I know you touched on
you know the link with Borough of culture and Trinity and forgive me if you don't wish to answer this question in the Indus for less perfect fine but I know you raised concerns about the future
but I'm just curious should this application be refused
what how do you visualise the future Trinity in their current location and that's just purely base for my own personal views as as cabinet member for culture and just to echo Councillor Walsh's concerns I do feel Trinity can sometimes appear to be a more of an exclusive
score and I would love to see you know more outreach programmes within our community such as more within the south of the borough and those families on low incomes and you know just to give people a bit more confidence that Trinity's you know more for the community and not just potentially her a more exclusive school and that's just my consent and question thank you to you know well thank you Councillor B of the question the couple of point third to make one is I suspect that were better doing the community activity than we are of perhaps promoting it
if if you think that because as I say it is a fact that we do spend 3 million pounds a year on our community activity and it is a fact that we work with over 10 thousand young people pre 18 in our local boroughs of Lewisham and Greenwich on its attached Lee more Lewisham that it is Greenwich so if if you don't see the activity than it might be to do with promotion
but of course we could do more we have to raise the money to do it I mean nobody pays us to do it I'm grateful for the grant from Lewisham other sites more than we get from granite but his 50 thousand pounds and we spend 3 million we have to raise that money to do it because the Higher Education funding that we get not only is it focused on our higher education students but I actually have a financial mandate when the Office for students that prevents me spending that money that we are given for higher education on pre 18 so we have to raise the money to do the work that we do and say we do more than any other higher education institution in the area and we do more than any other Conservatoire in the country
but I'd love I'd love to do more your question about what would our viability be if we don't get this building well it will be more of a challenge but you know we faced challenges in in the past we faced many I mean I've actually been with the organisation for 35 years I was the client on the lob and building and we've faced many problems in the past and I'm sure we'll face them and rice to them in the future but it will make it much much more difficult if we don't get this facility OK thank you very much about hi pipe unclear allow one more questions to the applicant's team and that Councillor Clark C I've got indicate it and I'm going to be too that it's here from the objectors
Councillor Clarke
thank you Chair and that he should have declared an interest as I was actually oppressing by trade time that I was in a sort of parallel trade but obviously that doesn't relate to this in this application but apart from the fact that I did come from a very ordinary background and I moved into that world and it was quite difficult there are significant barriers to people coming from an ordinary background into these type of trades including the cost of training I wanted to know other any scholarships that are specific to Lewisham residents for young people's particularly from four backgrounds but generally do we have you know does love and have the scholarships for particularly for Lewisham residents secondly on a completely different question it was about the commercial floorspace and how viable that is I understand that this floorspaces available in surrounding areas that hasn't been used and what would happen to that if it was unable to be filled because obviously that wouldn't look too good for the area and and what would be done with that spice otherwise thank you
what will be with the chap with the think give fully Domestica yes I mean that as far as a commercial floorspaces concerned that you have seen from the hence the terms of the section 1 0 6 Casablancas as a commitment to racially agree a of a marketing scheme with the Council's in-house team and that will set out the parameters of what needs to be done in terms of the marketing about over but whatever periods the intention of it is to we use the word commercial I think we probably the new E-class use there's come out which is combination of it could be officers of could be food and drink uses could be start up businesses from people attending Trinity lava for example I know your comment about the vacant units on the underside of the road I think we
so I'm not the marketing adviser blathered the discussions about it I think we see that the fact that the that the the commercial units will be literally cheek by jowl with the new literally also in your dancing loan facility with all the students there that if the things like cafes when you could go to them another related food and drink and entertain related would probably have a an additional attraction to be there literally next door to what's going to be such a we hope a vibrant facility including the the new performance Lemieux so I think that's where they the main focus of the commercial activities of marketing is going and it's a different offer compared to what's over the road I think all I can say is that the it's in the clients best interest or let that space because they don't want it to be dead around any public realm with Trinity lobbied on one side and
393 occupied units above it so I think there's an incentive for them to do it from a commercial point of view and I know the council very keen to encourage them to to offer all sources rent free periods and do fitting out of the space to attract people in I think to what extent the there's an open doors being pushed against I think at the end of the day as anything it's it's best endeavours and I think that's what they the Lions are going to do to let the space we really hope that it gets let over a period when the the 20 loss of facilities in place if it isn't well think marketing will continue I don't think there is a question of being converted to other sorts of users I think is that we we see the merits of the scheme as as the commercial floorspace on the ground floor fronting onto the public realm I think that's that's a unique selling point and ensure the creek so I think we're pretty optimistic that that will happen over once the scheme developed
I thank you very much for that thank you Chair shall I aren't so for Councillor Clark's question about scholarships 0 yes sorry I yes I missed that bit yes please do thank you while Councillor far I know and you will know as a as a very high level professional singer in your past them La Scala Ballon I think that the war somewhere you sang when you were singing professionally but you'll know that one of the challenges for conservatoires where we are really wanted to increase the diversity of our student population one of the challenges that unlikely University where you can lower your grades or give somebody money to encourage them to come in a conservatoire if you accept people who aren't of that high professional standard then they just fail and it's not fair on them so what we do rather than focus on scholarships 18 year olds is working with the younger age groups to bring them up to the level where they can get a place and so our scholarship action the Scottish shipping for Lewisham residents happened specifically
on our kept scheme that saw Centre of advanced training that's that the scheme for talented teenagers from the age of 13 to 17 where we scholarships specifically Lewisham young people and that's where my king of their commitment in the section 1 0 6 agreement should should we get a consent for this scheme
and it's interesting that somebody who's got a young man who's come through from the very early years of our youth work with with talent that no Cree training at all has come through our youth programme
went through our cap scheme Centre of advanced training scheme got a place on our undergraduate training scheme is just graduated is a fantastic professional dancer now and he's actually the a photograph ovine doing a leak outside the Laba building as a photograph that Lewisham has chosen on your room your borough of culture website web page if you look at your web page after this meeting Moses ward fantastic young lowish and boy is featured on that and he some be this can all throw and and up through into the Horridge cation programme and is now going to be a really successful professional dancer hope that answers the question I think it does have professed to bounce and it's the Chadwick thank you both very much for your extremely helpful contribution to our decision making process and a late TEN your cameras off now that you are welcome to stay and observed the rest of the meeting
from within the teams meeting rather than trying to switch to the public webcast and they also welcome to leave it well that are yet welcome fleet just in case them it's it's slightly possible that we might want to ask you something but I'll try and avoid that Members are mindful of my responsibility to stopping if you haven't go to bed too late it's it's nearly 20 past nine and a pool Standing orders permits us to carry on this process until 10 o'clock in that we suspend them I'm aiming hoping for something slightly earlier medically can next we need to do is fear from or the one or more objectors who are here to inform us in the same matter I'm aware that we have Dr Hern Bill
open window I'm sorry for not pronouncing at Rye are you are you hear Dr Condell
I talked and I was certainly an present in the meeting earlier
please some 10 your camera on a few tables 2 and you wish to and turn your microphone on just to confirm that you're here and also aware that Mr. Spano was also here as you need them
I am now what what I'm good EV Mr. Spano thank you very much joy yes thank you thank you should it's up before my Bill just or something what's happening and I was just a that that that the site a lot of lifting exist oranges and I should explain that I'm as beginning the meeting passed and I was told by the Clerk and Jasmine pack sheep and help us here and I was told by the Clerk that Dr and DEL would be speaking to be the only person registered to speak for Hispano I it's clear to me that you do wish to make some points of objection
that's not yet turned because I'm trying to identify whether we got other objects says her for joining us first unforgettably so DUP Tippendell yet the meeting one young man and you are here can you hear me 0 yes no I can now thank you very much but yes I can see the huge I can certainly hear you I find that the objectors have the same and I hope there nobody that there are no other objective there are simple people listen I don't think anybody else's confirmed that they were intending is that correct Jasmine could you confirm please yes and Dr Mr. spaniel was it's Dr hone them with Gano speak on their behalf not another I wanted people maybe after thought I'll tell you right and that meant Jasmine could you could you just confirm there are no other objectives in the meeting please and one second there is
garden party want somebody to pop up at the end of the site in its and so I haven't had a chance yet yes it scena with
the Tina Brown
I'm not an objector OK right I am now they're of that that this of this a large number of people who were also there if needed to answer questions on behalf of the applicant and and unafraid for that they Hasting case we needed the but the
I think the Durst's so why are giants dot dot starts to handle my pronouncing or named Brent and festival yes you are and I really thank you for the opportunity own patch you address the meeting both both dot and Elgar and fair start yet because I'm that they the Rose other objectors will have the same opportunity collectively as the African so didn't Mr. Spano is also intending to speak what you have is a mess you made in other arrangement to divide the time between you you've what you have is two and a half minutes see OK
so a and I am just trying to set my timer
so has as you registered first I am going to ask you to speak first and I'll tell you when your turn half minutes is up please and then I will ask Mr. Spano to speak to the Committee brat so and a half minutes and then I'll leave you both connected to the meeting as it were and members might be forced either of you questions and they might direct them to one of your or or another or not is that there is it is OK so Doc Dr Ferndale would you like to go first please
I thank you
once we can see that there is a need for to develop the brand that the brand site I would urge the Planning Committee to refuse the application on several grounds as many of the issues that we have raised about loss of privacy the third loss of daylight and overshadowing and existing buildings has already been
is well understood by the the members as have the challenges with the copper Estée related issues and impact on local committees for I'd like to do is that this evening I noticed a Garretts presentation has sought to give Lubben very high waiting within the meeting as an integral part of the scheme and we've also heard and very eloquent support love and or or will cease to exist argument from the principle was we recognise that Labour needs to develop its estate Committee should challenge Lovens case for officer provision funding of its five storey building and 35 pounds 30 point 13 point 5 million pounds for a shell Lavin should be incentivised to use existing commercial estate in the vicinity for additional rehearsal and performance they offset funding it is seeking at the expense of affordable housing can be used to lease nearby empty commercial units in Lewisham and Greenwich Borough even the empty Greenwich Dance Academy in the Old Town Hall and make use of spare capacity through collaborative initiatives with other arts venues and creative spaces such as the Grand Theatre and the studios around Creekside in this way it can do more for the community Laven's claim that his a major player in the Mayor's SPD culture night-time economy at major cultural focus culture quarter collision is not substantiated indeed it might be commercially unviable the reality is that its new small capacity theatre its location in a residential area it's niche repertoire will inevitably complete with established mainstream multiple arts and culture venues such as the O2 Royal Naval College and the greenish realities and love and does not have the scale the capacity the resources facilities ready accessibility the other venues offer a varied repertoire space vistas political transport links easy accessibility and access to local pubs in Utri's Lavin cannot justify making its community commitments conditional on the five storey annex being laid available first underling very muscular purpose you is to provide education thus now on site
thank you
that Dr handle you your muted you have had your turn off minute members of the Committee will I'm sure what to ask you some questions and half to we heard from Mr. Spano OK Mr. Spano go ahead please and again I will I will time your to an odd minutes I'll tell you when it's up alright starting hers thank you for inviting me what I want to tell you first the Protestant meeting
just to an astonished the lobbying to learn from desire to give a per as making the old thing about the Lubben and not about it too tall tower with are not suitable for the area even ever considered current in the way that there is an opportunity here and saw its on drivers' plank equal 3 space around for commercial and the residential this one is not giving her the reduction afford the bullet toll does a 10 per cent of 50 percent if you just to eat right now it's family with the I think will never be
useful for are often for a publican session something like or are you go on to kill someone anyway what I want to to explain why he is not a viable distinct is a better Rivera there thinking are all the things around but not on the other side of the creek I just leave on the other side of the creek eastern ward and the from widget building
all the hours daylight will be completed Ciro they light the NGO EU everything will be obscure from these two told buildings and the I think are just the extension of Alon with you just enough to not give us enough light but anyway Lubben Ezard so another was telling can extend another plenty of space in closer by without free and I think a rating by March of buying Panesar more viable Verner
given for free that face overlap and and even there are Lewisham area to deserve the author otherwise I think what are we need that is to think about the desire as an era of where people live not the work people have just to gain money from building only go up on the other one is the closure of a way of going to do it this way so if Lagos just more give you more money because you just get a double the density Bethan normally the using politics area I think is not the way to or from today to think a Lavin I like Lavin I like everything about London is a different problem from water but the areas he said is just an area all thank you know as the other spinners evil and I'm sorry which out we will ever know more
I think I think the clock has some as dutifully muted you because your time is up
cast many or if you could and if you could on Newt both of the objectors please
I was picking España you eat had your time and I'm I must be I must be fair and giving both sides of the KC call time which I've done distended by OK thank you very much thank you very much for that and I was an actual salary sore for being bitter that's that that that's quite aright I mean I understand it's 8 he can be a very stressful process where you're coming from these I think are you ever to can see the other side of the Greek and I would absolutely yes I'm I'm just going to ask that you you you have started Jazmine if you could and me both of the the Speaker's injection please you you you didn't eat it tell us I think we're we're or that helped us understand what impact of the proposed development he's on on your home in the thing we had syrah from you primarily Dr handle I I don't think you told us where you live and therefore ACU gunned interest because the proposed development has
have a direct impact on your own home so before I let other members in I on several of indicated I just wanted to ask you Dr Hindell if you could tell us if if the proposal has a direct impact on your home if it was allowed
yes it does I'm an owner occupier in Creekside west
OK right so so roughly roughly the same local interest as a sponsored in I guess right I've got some for Councillor Clarke indicating than Councillor Olivier than Councillor was so in that order for he goes Susanna
thank you very much Chair and just very quickly to the end Mr. Spana could I just ask very quickly you didn't get chance to finish off but a very briefly were the main points that you wanted to make about day light and view within the two men critical pints that you wanted to raise is there any other just one or two critical pilot obviously we can't go back over a lot of detail but other any other critical points that you want to bring forward
I want to do you don't leave in desire our acutely aware you trust to use different modes of travel but he should take it just the road Crick Rother any time of the days just follow car or taking 400 more people with the relatively yeah movements around means a better the Roeder now is a useful up to 12 hours a day will be no non dutifully tone just stopped just there are a clutch of cars
more than that if you just go to some services would be Huish and there can be just to to Lewisham or we go to greater as is a trouser anyway polarity to public service to schools to nurseries everywhere we're there would be not enough things for her one anyway yeah we we I schools and transport euros
when can be given a better anyway when you a bit of Safina you buyer take something from the developer just a percentage just to their up services and now we're just to trying to sell you the SA sandwiches yet to pay any way another way thinking but the fair jazzer giving you summer some for free napping to be known give you nothing for free Burgess Rob from you double what the the area can I can get give them and the just keep to OK give us why not thank you I think you've given me a good idea of the other areas that you're concerned about thank you Chair I was asked to pick an observation that an on the other objected and was about the ability we obviously have to stick to this application we can't say that they should go elsewhere but also that I know that music and and dunce facilities are very specific about the tapes and shapes and sizes of rooms and everything that their needs are it's not always easy to just take it elsewhere that's not always an easy option however and thank you very much Chair
making that point Councillor Clarke right Councillor Olivier you have further this yes I actually it's for both of because of above cut off but I have given some some some on feedback and so as you can tell both view that that obviously yes we are we have to look at all aspects as application is impact on on neighbours but we as you know I mean we've been focusing rather lots night on on on public benefit and you both of you is slightly touched on that and given it you both live there in terms of you talk about the 20 lab and yet other issues the public benefit give you can you mentioned particularly dot handle about about the area broadly in terms of other spaces are Hewat and Castle Clarke saying about specifics but actually this my point being it this site isn't just a site where that public benefit in this way could be done if you get a feel for the broad area and and other areas where Wareham the public benefit could be developed in different ways rather than just it that draws us the way we're getting in this application
thanks I think I I could cut invention the the lavender aspect because I just felt that in terms of its sad business development there was an opportunity for it to show some vision in how it's resolved itself problems with the estate and where I was actually cut off or was that the the my I think that the concluding remarks perhaps I'd like to share with the Committee is that the height of the position in the design of proposed tall towers is in the density the scale and the poor layout of the scheme it does not reflect the distinct ledger of
does the Greek Creek or in Greenwich or Deptford and the the on various already saturated and well optimised for private housing and other development schemes skewed towards the private markets cannot be justified I feel and personal provides just 10 percent of the affordable housing and even with the politically motivated 15 per cent made condition lollop being approved is well below the current affordable housing threshold in London I feel that the site is available should be repurposed to contribute more to meeting the demand for water or housing for NHS and other public and private sector key workers in Lewisham not just for private sector market and I finally the high density housing which is typified by the current proposal cannot be justified in the current and foreseeable economic fabric health and social reality that has been created by the COVID-19 world we now find ourselves in we have learned lessons to learn from the impact it has had on the public health experience in urban environment and trying to create such dense housing is is is frankly is it's totally unjustifiable
thank you
OK Councillor Dr Mrs. Spano as well yes yes sorry
so erm you're I have to refer to the same questions or your default yes what would it what it is it's it's it's a public benefit point you know we've we've been offer the specific public benefit obviously we have to say we have to judge whether that public benefit is is is the right and reasonable given given the impact of the site and given the so feet so little affordable housing in this you know we have to weigh that and and that's why appreciate given that you live right by it if you could explain you know the broader context about it the public benefit doesn't just have to be on the site for us we have to see in the round
quarter 1 2 you've maybe to think about it return
I don't know why we can derail from the manner Turmer were telling about just going to some in for love and is not enough money we have to make land survived just does were used only add liner Loveness to to survive if notice a toll is just a proposal from a proper at the owner not exactly on that because the ones just the one third of area you get them for free the other two thirds are just for nothing
because we don't value to all your Area your area and building here as well it's not a parking our something like the other grass line the last Landa is not Laughland toll it at the building like the other one winter is 1 and in fact it is one of building 13 storage effect plus more for 100 building an for Alvin flysaa at all Etienne the so I think
we are saying we have to think about this area is just said is free just a guileless kept out all the the gamut of is there now is a bigger adjust to implement the with the you can use for land anywhere you do not need to to buy it to build the sixth floor you can be just one floor with a mini an open theatre making a grassland around our kids are Puglia badly Spacey Sir
supposed to
but not just the only because it is on this once a need to make maker 400 flights that we don't need the because of all their around the full of up empty commercial and residential spaces so why we need to put more things on the market for nothing for someone gaining money OK let me go on on their own money-wise site
our building that is on the other side of the of the Krekar when these two are a bit our will be delta will lose the value we will have a if I have to sell my Immaculata I had no view to to sell
trying to get to the action
one of my flat as others said the process that the editor
we're all as Councillors very interesting begin in those issues the process that we have to undertake here he's to make a decision just on the planning application that's on the table in front of us tonight we can't tempted as we we nearly always are to think will what if you did this slot by the differently is other thing actually what we have to do is reach a decision on the application whoever it's come from and whatever capitalist profit motives he it's come from that's what we have to do I shouldn't have to remind Council of Olivier of this either because I I note I know that he knows very well and I think he was he was slightly misleading you intended you to to to undertake that so the speculation and I can see why but
the part of the reality of refusing disproportionally is it it's almost certain that this site would be a bullet it has already been deemed suitable for relatively intense development any alternatives I can see to this proposal on which we're not deciding to NI are some had been Aladdin that includes more affordable housing probably at least as much housing and hand in roughly the same supporter places so it's that that better there is not there is not an option to leave the site empty ultimately but anyway and I'm Onaga ask you to come in again but I am going to ask Councillor Wareing should also indicated that he got a question for one or both of the applicants to come in next and Councillor Walsh if you can
thank you so are potentially putting on the theme that you've just picked up their chair
this area is an intense is is earmarked for high-rise is the place that he would go and I'm quite interested to to hear how how high they apartments and flats part of the to people who are rejecting here because we have to we have to build homes and McKean thrust his ninth whether or not were willing to accept a social community investment over social housing that's the reason why I think that we've spent quite a long time
on this and we heard from officers tonight that with a daylight and sunlight studies that whilst there would be substantial harm with her to the current levels of light and when we actually factory in if there was a mirror building put in place the actually that the changes aren't as a substantive as they were without adornment so I'd quite like to know from the people who are rejecting tonight if we don't build a case
we've got to build something there is a piece of land in in prime real estate or how high do you expected to be I think Mr. Spanos said one story I'd like to hear from Dr Hundal what other thoughts are and how high a building that YouTube Livin
plus the thank you and well I live in a 10 storey building and I don't think anyone has objected to the development of the Brown site and we recognise that there can be housing on it
but we I would we do not feel that a out not tall skyscrapers of 13 26 storeys are appropriate for this particular area and so if there was an opportunity to step down in height and still meet some of the requirements of housing and and and still bearing in mind that those already fits very saturated End R O dense sort of private housing in the area then I feel that that should be concerned given some consideration
OK we'll think thank you to some daylight looking we get your point and Bahai I've already made it clear what we have to do by our duty is night is to decide on the applications in front of us and basically either approve the all music there are some very small modifications and conditions we can as the
I was getting a question and Eric added that the way to the plan yes Mrs. Palmer you you can briefly please
OK I will go early fashion I live in a 6 storey building plus 1 will keep the letter lizard bigger than younger ones
I think I can be 65 started anyway I don't be lever thinking one and will be enough for nothing but anyway not 30 not not the 15 you were and are get get give it to the alpha Sizer Maker and there but anyway
what is proposed to use it to you the area thinking about Aventis your saviour now to track to give officials on one and the you can make your own project the way away asking to someone other to make to you something that we tell you where you for free is not nothing for Premier no one was for free not you not me not them
thank you very much for that Mr. spanning how can I just check out because you says this quite a couple of times actually have a year where policy that from your your e-mail address and that he might work in the sector and are you aware that the Act couple have to pay community infrastructure levy to pay for some of the provisions and support in the the the bar you aware enough I am aware Britannia still aware with the
I am on their own degrees trial but anyway Grimshaw to you shall have the same you have meals not spendy the for making a public provision for service sending us started and we caught up multibillion-pound deficit at the moment no
problem you don't have enough money to spending services you to use the money you have for services another way that you need to to to use her and have a service will never Camelot thank you thank you very much respond I thank you very much Dr Wendell if he could certainly could
turn off your cameras now you're you're you're like the applicant some very welcome to stay in the teams' meeting but please leave your cameras and your Monk phones off unless and this is very unlikely we invite you to tell us something again in because there's something we don't know but thank you very much for your contributions it has helped us to reach the decision that we have to reach and Members I am hoping we are still able to get the last hundred metres over his to breach that because we spent a long time we can still a lot of issues
I am going to ask you to agree to suspend standing orders just in case we stray over that 10 O'Clock boundary again and look to take a roll call on that for anybody who dissents from that please speak up now
in and I can see somebody who's got a hand up but I'm enough nest recognising hands at one of the applicant's team I think and if you could lower your hand please Sir upon and can use the Chair in the way we have agreed right members I think we have to come back to the HRA couple of issues we shelved an which should be comparably resolved very quickly
where the conversation with the officers we've got with us one was about the securing the the continuity of the path along the side of the creek and what was the other I think it was yours Councillor Walsh wasn't it
while anyway let's say or officers can you can you give us some advice or reassurance on that 0 lamp land value yes thank you very much for minor and officers who is going to and give us something is that can be Garrafad can be Charles from allegiance to catch charge I can fully cover this I'm just intensely Creek surgery and I think that
because obviously it's about time fruit and soon insisted he and it's respond sad it's it's of just over 2 metres in width serving the of cheeses of introducing additional fencing and pleated to Larne probably not going to to work but not saying that I think that there could include provision within the 1 6 agreement that says you know that that that Lordshill use best endeavours to to ensure that that route is accessible in perpetuity at all times and in that provides the opportunity for us to to work with and to secure that and through I mean my base were that through its CCTV or insecurity to to to ensure that accurate is is Dryden's protected OK I repeat certainly are reminded to approve SI I would be happy to delegate the detail that officer's as long as we committed a clear a clear intention there had been intention is clear but the other point that Councillor Karen raised was about the returning points I think you mean the vehicle
0securing the securing the public highway nature of the space for vehicle turning on the access road and it's just to suit or be Churcher own their McCurdy it would probably an
making more definite and secure if we do sort of indicate as Members that we would like us as a bar to adopt that space we would have control over it to make it a proper turning space take out any doubts the are because in future despite it's no reflection on anyone present at the meeting but a personal can change people can forget an over sudden it gets complicated so I would like to recommend that we are recommended its adopted OK have Gareth Gareth's is is the intention of that again I think I would be quite satisfied if an officer's clearly understood the intention of that that we leave it to them to draft in details and the intention of that clear to you and your colleague yes Chair yet I mean the intention was the applicant had submitted a plan showing that turning at for adoption and but does seem to be agreed to the section 2 7 8 agreement so run console effect that this matter of the legally securing the that adoption of it as public highway right
am Emma you had bought it may be that the other point that we left on the shelf was regarding land value you got to expand on maths by by appearing as it were
yeah I'm I'm happy to happy to do so Chair I mean I don't think that we're able to provide the type of and very detailed answer that you and that you may want but I think what we can reassure you is that the viability and was looked at by our consultant who found all of the input including the land value to be to be appropriate now you will you probably know that we we have in our SPD which follows the guidance or predates the guidance but in the in the London Plan that we use an existing use value as well so we do have to look at all the land value what it is an for viability terms is what its value debt in its current use but with an uplift and I believe in this case there was an uplift of 30 percent applied which is to the higher end recognising the the development it's for the Lobban to reassure you that they're happy with the the deal that they've got for what we can say is that the profession and advice that we've had has has satisfied officers that the inputs are right and enables us to understand truly what that maximum
in a reasonable amount of affordable is which is where our interested planning authority lies when we're coming to assessing viability so it's a slightly different point but I just want to reassure you that you know this is a scheme that's been in for a long time and one of the issues that we've been discussing for a long time as you can imagine is viability so everything has been and gone through an alert until read out we have spotted and probe that potential hole you're confirming that there has been fully examined by officers before they broke their recommendations to us right I've got so Councillor Olivier you've got a question for officers or point yet the thank you that yet is for officers on it's it's well
part of the development its council leaders in the mix here as well and and an obviously it comes back to the public benefit issue you know we are putting in Council land into this and so it was even more important public benefit is is reached and you know I'm very concerned that we're you know where saying OK were putting the send but we're gonna get very little affordable housing probably get another but public benefit I see that
I'm very uncomfortable in in pop Council land being involved in the Baltic so what I won't want to know is you know in terms of what other public benefit in terms of the value to the council are we at which is to be for public services are we get away as a council getting out this because at the moment I'm really not happy about this
he will I identify asked officers trying to respond to that when I think we do we we we do have to be careful that we're we're making the planning decision here of this meeting at the separated those issues Franz please any issues of the helpful as an owner of land and
I should have been decided somewhere so I assume it must have been the Mayor and Cabinet at some point I don't know I don't know where and I wasn't sitting around that table but Chair with respect for me on this one the whole point is the big debate before us tonight the public benefit and that this is what is I am weighing in my mind as to what is it we are getting for the public here public land is involved in this and therefore it does have a bearing on the public benefits coming out of it and has very little affordable housing that is a big decision for us to make so overt are not happy with and that's why I'm interested in terms of you know the fact in in the mix we talk about land value here in the makes what what is you know what what's what's more is what is the Council putting into this we put into myth put given a lot to Trinity love and over many many years were being asked once again to make a decision in their in their favour you know and give away really the note the Bennett the potential benefit of a serious amount affordable at the property here it's a big core and that's why it's an important question I had ever I think I think this is too that your high-grade to respond and get prove it produces an and I think Chair you raise a really really important point before I do start to to answer this at that what is a material planning consideration for you as members of this Planning Committee and not as Members of the Council and so it's so while we can we can answer this and and the you shouldn't be placing weight this is not in itself a local finance consideration those are set out for you in your report and that looks at I mean in the report you'll see and the environmental statement and the wider economic benefits of investing and investing further into the laden from the Council's and perspective so there was a man cabinet approval in November 20 16 for the disposal of this of this land and the council in return would get 16 units and and also some overage provisions and in there so those are and valued as private units but the Council is East is free to use them and how it wishes and I think that you will you will note from some of the first plans that Gareth saw you and showed you that the piece of the piece of Council land and on its own isn't an easy development sites but bringing it together with this gets a better solution Bar I just again I think that is me advising you of the facts but you do have to make sure that you are only considering material planning considerations and put those put those to one side and the onus was now of scope but it is not yet understand Abbott's public benefits so that is with deftly within scope and that's one way my decision on
the I heart attack and impact
that's not exactly why this is tricky cows Councillor Karon you you wanted to add something to a for the potential recommendation I think AFI can I just wanted to a really get absolute cast-iron clarity over the axis issue her own Creek site and erm
I want to touch this now to see if we can make a condition that the fact we're TYC filicide is guaranteed access 24 7 I earlier Mike I think we've already been advised I seem income of those the backchannel checks which I and try to discourage the
he notes that the problem is that the BHA which we're asking for access to complete this path is not part of the application site what I'm looking forward to Cher thank you is is for that chapter and verse to be explained by officers on the record and if we can't do that then the very next tier below of enforcement that is available to us because I'm getting the feeling from Members and I feel very strongly to is at that were this is a very key issue for us so you want to use the system as much as possible to ensure that it happens sure yeah I know I'm public you on that of Gareth can you I take the hell can you reassure us that the that were if Kikwete delegate the detail of that to you that that will be what either
I must be very clear to you and your colleagues we intend
and yet the intensity that the point you mentioned changes and the red line so just to clarify the oversee as as he mentioned the route you talking at lies within Lovins existing campus so that outside the application red line boundary and therefore because of that he can't be a condition of fee of the permission however you can capture it through the legal agreements and through the section 1 6 agreement I was actually is is you know is in many cases and more robust mechanism to catch one at within so so it certainly Isaiah includes read legal recourse so if that wasn't provided then the Council as legal recourse against the landowner Translarna essentially in this instance to to provide that so I think as as I said that week we can say we can include no require trees in order to make best endeavours to ensure that that is accessible 24 7
report by Professor Professor Boden has has indicated that he liked to respond like and are not going to indict into because I I think that we're just complicate the discussion at this point but 80 he was on on record at least verbally of giving us the assurance that they would do that
so he learned could do come back through much and thank you clarify that clarification very helpful to us with that in mind just like to move that we do have a a recommendation that it's included in the Section 1 0 6 agreement that public access 24 7 is guaranteed with the caveat that we are work with Trinity LA band to find a solution addresses their security concerns
OK could could and perhaps it it
it will be appropriate then to I I think the bit of recommendation which we agree in the report would be one of the heads of terms of the Section 1 0 set for the legal Bremen if one of the officers while we continue this discussion could draft a wording for that to be added to the reports amphorae in the chap with with without with that helps overall are fairly writing them
I am well I I'll just officers to produce the right words and good bits of names are gay I think you've made it abundantly clear
I don't think there's any mistake about that and it's handily on the record and preserved for whatever interpretation of posterity the IT allows these recordings to be either in we are we've said it OK
Councillor Walsh I think you were next than you gotta question for one or more officers is that correct yes thank you very much Chair I'm so just pick up can offers direct me to where the Heads of terms after the section 1 6 I note the some of this
other countries around the agreements that we've got at access and provision from Chinchilla and it will be good to know if that includes in the section 6 I can't find it I've just had a quick search to the document to Noble we're actually getting is cast iron written down I'm I'd also quite 1 stand if and I just looked this up as well in the report again and the CIL payment is there is if paid at the standard rate for a commercial housing development or is there any reductions because of the higher education provision within within the building set that would also be key for me to know at this point as well
I'm guessing Thursday suppose acceptance that every section 12 through a pool but was its foot with silly the prevent public wrong through lobbying that you were looking for or what was the now so the
sort from the information we've been said by the developers day they have spoken about essentially services that will be provided by yet of remand through the provision of this building and I want to make sure that that is
when I yeah I agree we should have it in Leeds the formal rapport unclimbed trying to have a mentally puts us died anything extra to that that was in various information that had been sent by various parties if I I'm sure when I when I read the report carefully for Sundays ago now but that was it the the Heads of terms of the section 1 0 6 would be where I'd expect to find it I'm sure I I found the ones already drafted there yes that's consciously trying to turn in Section 12 any specifically Ashley paragraph I want thousand and 12 as it relates to the Trinity long and Community Use Agreement so that
times of intensive three-month this provision of additional dance music opportunities for children young people resident in the Borough of Lewisham and access Translarna building solution rents residents and registered charities and also increased answer music opportunities for Lucian adults including over 60 s so those prisons are satisfied detail at paragraph 1 thousand 12
OK and and if we if we agree the other commendations then we're we're noting noting also that we want to Ada had a perm regarding the the apathy the access passage past the land and building as we discussed I don't think he said go over that any more right OK I've got no yours indicating a question or a desire to speak
I think it's time where we come to a decision Emma sorry your dessert Surrey it was just to address the second part of Councillor Walsh's question am regarding CIL and to say there is and there's no exemption of charging for and education and so the only exemptions are there's a nil charge for any Bisbee one business space and in any development across the Borough and also I'm as usual for any affordable housing and is exempt but education institutions do pay CIL
yes sorry sorry James I type miss that reveal your back in the site not just ask on South on on the heads of term for the community use agreement how is this model to the measured
hadn't come with a clipboard that are no one's no factor for owing Guardia and I mean we do have and we do secure monitoring contributions as part of sexual Monnow sixes and for particularly complex cases we also oblige and people to provide us with with information and so for some schemes it's it's yearly around what what they are doing an on site and you know that as a as a as a borrower institution you can you can sort of tell when an in in a case like this you would probably know if someone was in an was wasn't achieving them given the profile but yes we do monitor our section 1 0 6 agreements but we try to be more proactive on them with it rather than going out with a clipboard but require people to confirm to us that they are delivering and to do that at regular intervals and we can also we do have some standard causes as well that can compel people to give us information within a certain period of time and whenever we ask for it if we ever have any if we ever have any doubt Sir Roger's check beds is picked up he said there Emre Can we asked the joint African the Trinity to send us an annual report of
however providing an is that can be most of us in there I'm also quite minded because I do think there is a an issue around the arts and specifically black young people being involved is there any opportunity for us to add to that 10 12 paragraph a rounds or ethnic profile because I think that were this is this is and this is the thing that I'm trying to square my head around a moment this is probably our largest grant to to a not for profit that we are going to make during my time being a Councillor and I think that you know we all were making a big decision here making a big investment and absolutely at the moment we've got some agreements which
as someone who was in the higher education sector I can say that there are other other agencies that make face things happen and that would be the Office for students around the widening participation agenda so I'm not sure that we're getting any plus from our investment year because these things would have been required and stands from professed about that in an are doing a good job and I don't want to track that all but I'm not sure that this is more than if they 1 1 were to do this if that makes sense
to get to answer that I mean we can certainly ask for that and that monitoring and for it to include an details about about background of students know what I would just obviously you will already know this caution that it requires people to provide that information and in the first part but we can certainly make sure that we that we ask for it but I think we still have an appointment fee on the board of concealer love and deadly games pipe I don't I don't October my head know who it is who who took out of the pot
often thousand Councillor Coley that right
I thank Councillor Clarke you had a question on carry-on is or is just very briefly on the a legal agreement adjusted it certainly made me think that says a minimum of 3 thousand children in young people to be registered to participate in dance and music activities could I just ask their free activities or their expensively inner expensive activities it's just that when we're talking about public benefit I just want to be absolutely clear that that young people can benefit who are from poorer backgrounds because I know how expensive some of these courses can be and if it sooner 600 pound for a term than I know there's quite a lot of people can't access that so that is a is these are important issues and I have struggled to have to say with this application a little bit because of the reasons that Kevin outlined earlier and the height of the building I don't think we can numb I think it is a a tall building site I think the fact I don't like the designer's personal that I don't feel that it's it's are of particular huge merit I don't I don't think that that we have a a point on that and I think it does come down to the affordable homes the public benefit argument which is why I'm just trying to act to find out about this last question because I have struggled with this application a little bit but if you could just answer that question quickly that might help a little bit thank you
yes I intend to that point may actually be a question of Weetwood PSNI Tusker first bound to to clarify arm but I mean certainly we subject to to to to to the Birches long we could potentially include provision but had sedition detail to that as you've as requested OK well hope would would that Members like me to invite Professor bound to come back the Imam and his response to that
gambling any dissent Professor bound and do please there you be bothered yeah while happy to respond none of our own none of our activity should be prohibited by your financial means most about dance and music activity as you know in the borough is free and where we do the the the specialist training the cats on the the Judea Trinity in an over in Greenwich of the talent programmes they are means tested bursaries so see the means tested bursary for free nobody is prevented from doing it by their financial means so it's on to clarify that
or other it's probably worth saying Well I've got the floor that the the racial and socioeconomic profile of our students in the junior programmes are people come into our buildings the people that we meet in schools in Lewisham is reflective of the general population of our area as I said over 50 percent of the people that are doing are put under 18 work are from Bayer me back backgrounds which reflects our local schools today
thank you
I'm going to be cheeky here then so if Professor banners saying then would it be an order than for us to say a minimum if we're already achieving over 50 percent and minus 40 percent of students will be from a BME background you'd be very welcome to suggest that for the section 1 0 6 agreement
OK I that I I think that's a clear in answer as you could you could hope for games
I hadn't I again members are in broad consensus with that when we can we can modify it and again I don't see anybody in the sense I think it is time that that somebody leads to move a proposal either the one recommended by officers or something contrary to that we've some outline reasons and simply minded to do that please
I think Councillor Olivier your your little yellow hand went up a fraction of a second before Councillor Walsh's so Councillor Olivier I'll let you have first go young him thank thank you Chair I mean refers earn a really interesting discussion tonight on you yes very big development and most as discussion has be focused on the on the public benefit and it's it's an illicit interesting and rare one for us and I certainly have a lot respect treaty lab and done some fantastic work in the bars and amazing site and and we've been here is not how they wanted to diverse fine do do more me encourage that
the value of the public benefit were told Spurgeon and is expressly 13 point 6 million an equal would be the equivalent of up to 35 bring that the difference between 50 percent or 10 percent Rother and 35 percent affordable housing
that is a huge ask from for for for public benefit when we when the biggest public benefit we can do for our people is ensure they are properly house we got huge housing waiting list in this borough so to my mind that too much to ask and I'm afraid on that basis I would ask that the Committee refuse the application tonight
you will need to outline
or at least broadly a reason for refusal you got my reason if and if we need to go into if it comes to it and other Members agree with me and we need to take legal advice on the specifics but would be based on the public benefit I don't do not think that the public benefit is is justified in this case at given in return for the impact of this development on on the area
everybody is a motion that the motion
Councillor Gallagher thank you OK before before I go further by help bit there to call that's that's Julie tabled before I go towards a boat I'm just going to get officer advice I think from either Emma or Michael on that tend to translate for Council Barnaby as outlined in so a reason for refusing Emma could you help us please
yes I mean I think that if I'm understanding what your what you're saying that you don't believe that the public the public benefits of the delivery of the Lobban outweighs the failure to provide a level of affordable housing more in accordance with an the the policy aspiration of a
the with the policy aspiration for certify percent affordable housing and including genuinely affordable homes I mean I think it's important that you you clarify you clarify that point but that is my mind deputation of what you've just explained
chair Emma eyes actually amateur say you've articulated it in a very clear mouths exactly hi I would we would would clarify the thank you and if Members would would like I mean we're happy to provide some some advice on that your Members will be aware that that was a similar position to what was taken on the the Callington Road skiing and so and that is something that if Members wanted to seek advice on and we would be available to give that it would probably be legal advice and in a closed session I would suggest yes
that as well
I am very mindful at 20 past 10 but I would like us to try and reach her which to decision we possibly can always we have to do this again so
would it be your advice Emma that we need to move into a closed session by do I do think we'll be aware working against the clock care OK let's do that in that case on afraid we will have to remove all of the people from the meeting who are not members or council offices advising us or our legal adviser so
Kevin fatty you're here and the Guesman if he could assist us with that please
so that they cannot see or hear and all read in the chap any of the pay of our proceedings then we will go into closed session
Shamil could I ask you to please suspend the web cast
I thank you very much
thank you everybody all over your your perseverance or whatever we have come out of clothes session we are resuming the public meeting we are just in the process of readmitting the people who were observing from inside our online meeting sound of wait a few moments for that to happen
the rolling Chair OK right thank you I hope everybody who was following the meeting before and do so again and will have resumed the public session of the meeting we went into closed session to take advice from planning legal officers on Tatchell sustainable reasons for soon add to the motion which before we went into closed session Councillor manosphere moved and Councillor Galica seconded so I'm just going to ask Council of an idea if you could and restates the her more precise wording that we've been advised on
at what you are listening please
thank you Chair so Nallet propose a motion that the Committee refuse the planning application before us on the grounds that the public benefits the proposed public benefits I'm owing to the Labban and it's in its enhance facilities outreach and does not offset the lack of genuinely affordable housing which is a material consideration of significant weight given the the housing crisis that is facing the wider area and I would ask that the outer officers delegated to appraise the exact wording of this motion if approved

3 Creekside Village East, Copperas Street SE8

thank you that less clear I think Councillor Gallaher you had seconded yet again
OK thank you
I think what area and I would ask that many myth missed about us of that I gated and to
thank you
that's been moved and seconded are what we need to do is take a roll call that owns so and members of when your names call please
confirmed that you have said in contact with the proceedings as it were throughout and then votes that you're either voting for the motion that's just been restated by Council of Olivier or against that motion and for your abstaining
OK adjustment if you could conduct a roll call now face
Councillor John pursuit I'm voting against Councillor Oonagh via inverting for
Councillor ban
I confirm I've been present for the whole Neath evening and I vote for
ancelotti lack I've been presented all of the meeting and I vote against Councillor Colin
Councillor Koran
Ferzan through throughout and for
Councillor Gallaher I've been present thrive on I'm voting fourth motion
Councillor Ogilvie aware
Councillor open-body aware chore I can confirm an present throughout and voting against place Councillor Walsh
I can confirm that I have been present throughout and I to and voting against
she was a tied vote fall for and four against
OK well some puts me in the interesting position but I've been to before high and there for exercising my casting vote in the same way though exercised my original zones and voting against that motion
the motion fails
I take Well it couldn't get any closer than that right but we still have to proceed we still have work to do and I still tend to 11th so Councillor Walsh I know just before we him came back into open session you said you wanted to at raised a few HMO issues about legal agreements with officers the clarified before we move to an alternative motion so please do that now is very much jet yes I think that's no-one can be in any doubt with monks this committee the we if we do move forward with and approval tonight I'm we we making a sizeable and significant contribution Sir transplants future and and in return we need to have a significant and sizeable contribution back to us more than what we would expect an at them's be doing his past their ordinary day-to-day as a higher education providing United Kingdom who has other requirements and other agencies upon them to deliver widening participation work was not wanted to merge with him
the Conservatoire is doing with inside our borough I don't and still not convinced it's going further enough to reach that level of investment that we are seeing as such I would like to see officers and further develop this this and if it weren't me for tonight her for that piece of work to come back to this Committee for us to review and agree
they are you are you suggesting hell Hellboy could get sufficient assurance of that from officers that would enable us to proceed tonight
well done by some that I would like some advice on that I think that you know even in the course of tonight's meeting we've managed to secure a 40 percent of or all of the activity work are being given to black Asian or minority ethnic communities I think there's more that can be done and I'm very disappointed with section 1 6 agreement and would like advice from officers and how we could further make sure that we get the the commensurate benefit from the 13 point 6 million thousand were investing for Tocchet was what I'd what I'm I'm not are not prepared to do because I don't cut I think it's fair on on all of her the Members here her and Forum Coleby our officers here is to try and enter into a process of negotiation with with the applicant or with
Professor Boden are keen as he might be to do that as well and are not going to leave that meeting into this at this time so I'm going to ask officers to tell us as succinctly as possible what assurance they can give us that that can be written into the terms of the third terms of section 1 0 6 agreement and and then on Conficker to ask us to triumph agree another motion so which of the officers wants to respond to that had chairing an infidel and guess personal interest only to pay sensitive the community's agreement for trees he Logan and officers concertedly him take forward further discussions with Cheshire along with a view to sedition be strengthening the provision is there and the community benefit that would be delivered an uncertain those discussions can take place outside of this meeting and see if Members would like that to come back to committee and could be arranged
OK thank Councillor Walsh
and I'm happy to proceed or as outlined by Sarit
OK right in in that case of in of would you be happy to make an alternative proposal along the lines of the amended officer recommendations councils
I'm sure I'd like to proposed subject to a further negotiation and agreement by this Committee that we and move forward with the application as outlined shall you're looking at me as if I'm slightly weird what's I'm not I'm not sure that we can and the luxuries of work if we do something that subject to having another meeting
I I think I think we've got to have sufficient assurance from officers that they can conduct the process of negotiation and then we had to decide to what extent we trust our officers I I'm prepared trust them quite a long way to understand what's in our minds and and what we're saying and to do the right thing but obviously it's that my that's my judgment early on the forming your Jetton for you I don't think we can agree something subject to having another meeting about it I don't think that works not retain a delegation routes
will again take officer advice on this and Emma I think you're trying to come in please do yes I mean I think that an in a bottle of that would that would be preferable I don't think that that's what you'll end what you're saying what could do I think in the way that Gareth has described is say that the the community and use agreement is a minimum requirement and with you know a form of words around you know reasonable endeavors to agree and enhanced package that then we could then the put back on that enhanced package so that you could comment an impure onto that but it would be in the context of an
but there having been a resolution to grant that that is that is something we can do and I think that would in overseas it's your decision but I think that you've given a very clear steer both to officers and the the the applicant and lobby and so they will not be any doubts over what you're what you're seeking
well I quite I think that she that's better as I said I I don't think it will be productive in any way and I think it will be quite destructive to try and take this committee and this meeting or a further meeting into a process of of online publicly webcast negotiation with the app can learn so I'm not going to do that I'm I'm happy to accept attempt to give that level of trust to the assurance we just had from officers the and that will achieve as much as as we and they are abled and I think it is unreasonable to ask them to try and do something more or to as we just been advised defer their son and do it all over again because I think we'll just go round the same route again so I
but that as as I said that's my judgment
flexibly up to individual Members to make their own individual judgments I are you are you sufficiently satisfied as as I and James and I'm always a sign nurses in the course of the work they deliver and the advice that they give it to us that and with that in mind I would like to move the recommendations as outlined amended through this meeting and with a specific reference to the points raised by all members are also specifically this community
usage agreement as part the Section 1 0 6 back and I'm very happy to circulate the draft minutes of in that that there is a an audio and video record as well and I'm very happy to circulate the draft minutes so that all committee members can agree that they make clear what we are all of the discussions we've had tonight over those points is anybody prepared to second that recommendation please
I got I got Councillor Gruen but I fully were am Councillor Clarke I think Councillor again but are you you were just again a fraction ahead Councillor flock so we will put me down us seconding that recommendation and again will Leader at roll call votes and Jasmine if you can take a roll call vote on that recommendation please look and ask you again a few been untouched as it hasn't been long but I'm going to ask you to fairly say whether you are for that recommendation against it or abstaining from voting
Jasmine through Councillor John pursuit OK I'm I'm voting for that
Councillor Nambiar on voting against
Councillor Booth
I'm voting against Councillor Clarke full
Councillor quorum
thank you
Councillor Gallaher against
Councillor Ogilvie day aware for
and Councillor Walshaw please
sorry Councillor Walsh I didn't get that all thank you
5 4 chair and three against or you deprive me of the Hoppsy somebody right OK well but I found but her workers
we have reached a decision and with all of the things we discussed and all of the discussions that are yet to be had hopefully by Planning officers firing permission is not exactly granted but as set out in the recommendations in the report and we are agreeing to the proposals we will be referring applications to the Mayor of London
them because it's a decision that needs to be made at his level and we will also be again subject to the limits we discussed tonight agreeing that so switching to the words and see them
assuming that the Mayor of London doesn't
besides contrary to what can we been told he's advised us we will then be authorising officers to complete legal agreements under section 1 0 6 or funny acts begin with those several amendments and it'll Vahey satisfactory then to delegate granting planning permission
subject all of that to the treacherous flowing service and I think at last that concludes the site business thank you very much everybody who's participated and spinners rather gruelling aelod Spain says three hours and 52 minutes on the time on my teased adding joined the nation's budget reporting their feet
at Channel if you can come forward