Children and Young People Select Committee - Thursday, 26th November 2020 at 7:00pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Children and Young People Select Committee
Thursday, 26th November 2020 at 7:00pm 









Start of webcast
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1 Minutes of the meeting held on 21 September
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2 Declarations of interest
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5 CAMHS update and Q&A with Sir Norman Lamb, Chair of SLaM Governors
6 BAME attainment
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3 Responses to Referrals to Mayor and Cabinet
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7 Select Committee work programme
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  1. Webcast Finished

thank you I'm getting everyone I'm count fully Sauber and the chair of the children Young People's Select Committee and this is the opening of our meeting tonight before we moved to an item 1 because we are
taking place in these rather a sort of extraordinary circumstances have a preamble I'd like to read about the the Xoom the Microsoft Teams etiquette and the or help the meeting go most smoothly and hopefully allow people to participate and to the maximum so
when you first speak could you please Stet your name and your role for the benefit of those viewing the meeting you can only do it first time this is being webcast and a recording will be available on the Council website that I want to take a look at that afterwards or during
unless you are a member of the Committee because we do have guests please can you make sure your cameras switched off until it is your item on the agenda or I've asked you to speak in which case please switch it back on and keep them microphones as to everyone then there's an guests muted unless and until they are invited to speak so we don't get the background at the background noise can be quite distracting if you have a question this is the members of the Committee unfortunate this is a meeting held in public not a public meeting to there's no opportunity for members of the public to ask questions so I was welcome them getting in touch with myself in between meetings with their concerns but for Members who wish to contribute please just type the letter Q in the chat function and that's I know you wish to speak
and because that's what I'll be using rather than raised hands or or any other method can we allow the chat function to bit Skloot lively and for indicating when it's we'd like to speak and and try and resist answered messages and making comments of a WoE Gayle to and respond to them and I don't want to lose any of the any of the kind of applications to speak that members will be typing in there as possible that one may get disconnected in which case if that happens just try going back to the original link that was sent you and you should be able to return hopefully when any internet problems sort themselves out the will they will be announcement when the meeting finishes so please hold back any cut a post meeting chat which we do sometimes involve ourselves in until we get the the the notice of the live stream as finished and the formal meeting you know it's complete
I've received some apologies for non-attendance from Lilian Brooks and also from Councillor Holland and I've also receive notice that Councillor Jack Wilshere will be joining us late due to another another commitment Councillor Sophie Davis who attends x a physio as Vice Chair of overview and scrutiny will be joining us later as well and I don't so
mentioned those who are unable to attend tonight I would like to welcome
it's the first time it had an opportunity to take part in a meeting of the Select Committee
and I hope I'm pronouncing you don't currently all of our fella Adjaye whose our new parent governor for special schools are you there all of a fellow are some nice things about my job and Councillor summer for recording me about and while it's great to have you here and is a very important position that you hold it's very important to the Committee and we'd when are we appreciate the contribution that you'll be making how how would you like to be addressed I often use first names a lot Oasis legally asphalt fellows frame fella all right thank you

1 Minutes of the meeting held on 21 September

so it's now I think time to take a look at the minutes which I have been through quite so rigorously I haven't found any errors of of a fact that still or accuracy in those minutes but if anyone feels it as something that was
noted incorrectly or something important it was missed out and please let us know if you
don't have anything to say about the minutes I will take that to mean that they are acceptable and then I can sign them as a
as a as a true record so
I'm not saying anything that checkbox regarding the minutes in which case with your ascent RI will consider them accepted as a record of our last meeting and move on to Item 2

2 Declarations of interest

so declarations of interest have been received in advance by Councillor Jack pursue and she is on the board of ravens for youth project and that is pertinent to one of the items in the budget cuts section later
later this evening I myself have an interested Claire for the item on CAMHS from slab I Lewisham council's appointee on the Council of Governors of the South London Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust are there any other declarations of interest that people would like to share with me that can be noted down by as growth new manager
thank you Chair I'm that Lucian Council's representatives on their youth first board
thank you thank you yeah so that's a reference to budget cuts yes yes they can look and K and K will note that
I'm not seeing anything else to the chat box so I will
to include the item now are on the return agenda
item 3 I believe was going to be the response to referrals but to take into account the availability of
are our guests and the attendance of a Councillor some food or arriving late I and and tend to switch the gender around a bit with your permission so I'd like to take the CAMHS update next

5 CAMHS update and Q&A with Sir Norman Lamb, Chair of SLaM Governors

and then move on to the road quality item and then go to the budget cuts
and then take the response to a thorough however
I know Councillor jump issues here and would like to speak to the response to the referral so John if you wish to leave the meeting or not wait to know a couple of hours until that item I will take that item now but if you want to forget to attend the whole meeting I would probably like to reserve until later in the agenda
Karen on absolutely happy to do that I've retainer of a gripping interest in most of what we select committees during even though now excluded from all select committees do to our HRA budget cuts but membership cuts for other reasons so I had very happy to wait and and here but but probably not interject in the rest of your agenda although I might like to interject in some of the bits about the budget under Standing orders if the Committee locating her yeah of course yes thank you for attending this was an item that I remember you
sort of addressing in an but we sat last year and you were a member of the Committee you were always welcome and under Standing orders on happy for you to take part on in any of the debates acute care I pop continues for the site and because I fight ahead read the response carefully and and they're awesome some issues in it which are still I think
the Committee should consider not a satisfactory answer for the future of support for children Services good and I'd be very helpful because actually yeah I've read it myself and you will have a much better understanding of the of the content than I will with your background so I look forward to hearing from you
if not before then when we reach that item later on the agenda
in which case
if the Committee is happy with my sort of rearranging the agenda will move on to to item 3 we have attending from the South London and Maudsley
NHS foundation trust we have Norman Lamb who is Chair of Governors we have held venison whose director of children and adolescent mental health services are we also have Brenda Bartlett who is deputy director of children and adolescent mental health services there and who has attended the the Committee before so welcome to all of you I understand Harold that you're going to be speaking first
yes that is correct so I would like
it's a very busy agenda that budget cuts as a very long item the so I've allocated 35 or so minutes to this I would like the bulk of that time to be a question answer I think there's a lot to be gained from that we do have the data that you've sent us I can understand why a cut of a one of the more formal reports you given all the pressures people are under you weren't able to provide that would you mind perhaps introducing the date of a just a very brief kind of sort of
broad brush strokes and then we'll here from Sir Norman as well and then open up for questions is that OK what will what I was thinking is that I've got an overview presentation which is about the system and it speaks to the waiting list in it shows a small amount of data I was thinking This 37 pages of data yet people have read that they can ask questions and we can navigate and discuss that I was also thinking I've just got sort of half a dozen slides or so I was thinking if I present those and trying to get through those quickly and then colleagues can put their cameras on and and we can have the conversation and the Cuban aid as that work yet but I I will have a and I've got to have be candid you will have to raise through those slides or I heard again this is a rare opportunity to to engage directly with one another
and so if you could in your presentation just highlight the main points I'm sure a lot of the other information hopefully we'll come out in in in the discussion Harold if that's OK absolutely I'd I can also at that Dr Omer grabby the lead clinician for Lewisham Cannes is also joined us as well so so you have a clinical representative to further questions so shall I move onto the slides very rapidly gap please do
training so can I just check can you see a sly adjust to cover slide now yes perfect and get to leave it like this so that technology doesn't overcome so one of the big issues has been access and waiting times there is a national access target and would please confirm that Lewisham CAMHS and meeting that national access target and you may remember that over recent years we've been talking about incredibly long waiters and service have been able to confirm there has been no referral waiting over 52 weeks in the last month and at the moment all referrals at the 39 which they have got booked appointments so there is a marked difference in the length of weights
we just touch on the system around that and then we're making sure that not only are we looking at the weights for initial assessments were looking at the waits for treatment and then making sure that access isn't just a number we're looking at the equality of access and just very briefly
I thought one of the things I know in previous discussions is if you can't measure something than how you really saying that you're doing something about it and this slight as to showing that we've now got the tools follow Ossian cans to look at the ethnicity profile and we're monitoring that and there are various schemes that we are working on to to look at influencing it very broadly it's it saying that we have in the order of 45 to 50 per cent who would identify as white and 40 per cent who word identify as black and mixed race
and then approximately 3 percent who would identify Asian so it's that the data is there and we are continuing to monitor back and then this graph is again a monthly chart and it shows the make-up of the activity that has happened from March through to October and you can see that in March you've got predominantly green and black which is a split between face to face activity and phone calls
and then you can see as Covid moved in the face to face activity reduced but it was replaced with video calls so activity was broadly in line it was maintained but obviously a different way of delivering services and this is specific for Lewisham the other thing I will say is
not only have referrals recovered since the reduction we had when COVID really started but actually last month was the highest number of referrals to Lewisham CAMHS since April 20 19 and across the whole of the CAMHS operation in south London and Maudsley October aggregated to be the highest number of referrals we received in that time frame so we're obviously looking at what he buries in the system right now
looking ahead specific actions that are sorry not looking ahead actions that we're doing so how we made the change happen we've opened up Saturday clinics where drawing service together and looking on solutions and quality improvement ideas to maintain flow we have posts where we're making active contact with those who are waiting to check how they are offering advice signposting to websites and digital options and also just making sure that we keep the service current
and then we have talked of the Alchemy project before that might be an area we can discuss in the queue and AES but running group programmes and a high degree of co-production and co delivery with young people in Lewisham for that project
looking at priorities for next year and I'll I'll hold to the pace early intervention particularly around the schools programme and working with some pilots with having some early intervention practitioners in GP surgeries and then I thrive as a recognised national model for delivering children's services not just CAMHS but looking at the whole system and some specific collaborations there
and then as well as those two I've mentioned alchemy and then there is a significant amount of work in the workforce development and counts it is nationally recognised that CAMHS needs to receive investment at a higher rate than the mental health investment standard of course moment are investment broadly goes into labour although as I've said we are undertaking digital developments and looking at absent and investing in that area as well that the main main area of focus in our investment is frontline clinical staff and of course we need to make sure we got the ability to recruit those staff and to develop them and another expectation nationally as a significant change in the access to a crisis response for cancer services so we're increasing the operating hours and developing our plan for a 24 7 which is the NHS long-term planning aspiration
and then the last slide is just to remind us that meeting the national access target is indeed fantastic is the aspiration that we we were set out to meet in the five year forward view that that simply means in March 20 21 meeting 35 per cent of the need
we wouldn't do that in any other service the NHS long-term plan out now to 23 24 has modified the access targets slightly its opening it to 0 to 25 so the well recognised cliff-edge of 18 is no longer expect but even then it's broadly recurrent activity so if you're only meeting 35 percent of the need and you double it over a bigger age range you're still talking about 30 to 40 percent of unmet need is the national aspiration and I think that's something we're exercised on in the boroughs that we're working with just to see what what do we think we can do with a mental health investments founded the other opportunities
and remember these are new emerging opportunities we've already talked about engaging with early Help working with schools are crisis offer their on the previous slides what a hadn't mentioned is we think there are some big opportunities to develop digital services and we already have the CofE a telephone Our support and and and counselling we think we can build on our alchemy success with more and stronger Community and peer support and of course peer support encounters bringing in parents as well as children and young people and then as well as built as just having the I thrived model we we really have opportunities in Lewisham because of how we're set to collaborate to really develop a networked approach to as best we can a universal offer with stepped care where the right intervention from the right organisation at the right time means that we're deploying OK resources as effectively as possible I propose to take myself off screen shall now and move to the Q&A is that
reasonable does anyone want to look at any of the slides again
would you mind just having a flick through case of armistice no Dowler statistic or the name of a of a policy so I should have been back to the front slide you can see that yet again attacking throughout the first text
yeah and then the ethnicity data
they were delivering service in the referrals data
specifically what we have done to make the difference to our waiting times
and then looking at that early intervention and I thrive alongside co-production developing the workforce and the crisis response
and then just thinking beyond the immediate priorities are thank you very much that that was very helpful and if it's possible for those to be shared with the Committee I'd be very grateful they they had unofficially put them into late hit the websites over there they are intended to to to be fully available yes thank you how now before I open up the questions I perhaps Sir Norman would you like to
add something to what Harold has presented to us and then I can ever discussion which perhaps that Members can can direct one at yourself but one at Harold or or or at 0 Morrow you know you know you can sort of feel all the questions between you that work best for you yeah that's that's fine I mean I will you ask beat specifically to focus on Thame Health disproportionality inequality and so forth and ideally happy to address that now and then there could be as a joint Q today's it were yet the I think that's probably the most efficient way yet over over to you
OK thanks very much for thank you for inviting me Councillor sobered appreciated I wanted to just highlight the following that first of all the South London and Maudsley is one of four pilot areas around the country trialling a new approach which is called the patient and carer Race Equality Framework
and the whole idea of this is really for mental health trusts to work with local communities to identify what the gaps are are getting to grips with the data understanding whether for example
young black people are not accessing services as early as other groups understanding the data fully and then once we've got a clear picture of where the gaps and inequalities might be I should also say incidentally that we know broadly that young black men in particular are over-represented disproportionately impacted by compulsorily detentions under the mental Health Act her and the use of restraint on impatient wards but we need to get the data really clear and agreed and then we need to work out actions to confront those inequalities and to preferably eradicate them so this is a major piece of work with a significant investment from the Trust I think we're ahead of the other trial areas in the development of our work on this we're doing it alongside Greater Manchester I think somewhere the West Midlands East London and ourselves
and it gives us the opportunity to confront really entrenched issues that have not been properly addressed in the health system until now
so that's the first thing secondly we have been working as a board on developing a new vision for the organisation and although the vision has not yet been published and has more work to do on it we've reached broad agreement on the board and I can say that now confronting directly the race dimension in mental health services will be a core element of the new vision I think in the aftermath of Black lives matter the protests following the the death of George Floyd
it's incumbent upon us to confront this directly into the honest about it and it's important not only in terms of the services we provide to local communities but also the way we operate as an organisation you know equal opportunity within the organisation to reach the top and indeed addressing issues like the overrepresentation of some ethnic groups within the disciplinary procedure so that will be confronted head on and there will be a recognition that you know structural racism exists and are we have a responsibility to confronted we will also we've also agreed to start the process of reverse mentoring for all members of the board so that we all get linked up with a member of staff from a black or minority ethnic group to mentor us as leaders of the organisation so that we gain a proper understanding of some of the barriers that people face and third brief thing developing work alongside local authorities including Lewisham we had a prevention summit in early June this is to address the what I call the psychological fallout from the covert pandemic but to approach it as a sort of public mental Health Initiative recognising that communities will be experiencing heightened distress
as a result of unemployment rising debt levels isolation loneliness and so on part of one of the strands of that work specifically relates to children and families and we plan that by next April we will have developed an action plan which will cover the whole of South London and I think nationally we're probably leading the way in addressing the psychological fallout from covert in this way we had a second summit a couple of weeks ago with hundreds of people taking part at it and we very much appreciated our collaboration with Lewisham council and others on that just want to finish by referencing two things first of all and it builds on what Harold was say on when he referred to work in schools I chaired a children young people's round table yesterday which looked which was focusing particularly on the very exciting plans for a pairs MOD Maudsley children's mental health centre a brand new state of the art building bringing together
top researchers and practitioners and hopefully having direct impact on our local communities and I think this is a very exciting project but the presenters in that round table yesterday these were brilliant people working within our cancer services talking about how they are working in schools are using copies of behaviour approaches in primary schools for Oak Los work or and some very exciting early results from that work with the potential for it to be rolled out nationally that's the great benefit we potentially have from our collaboration with the academic Centre in the Institute and also work in sixth forms as well with young people who may well be experiencing heightened levels of anxiety and trauma and again there is the potential for to roll that out more widely and then the final thing is and this in a way just no addresses heralds point about the fact that something like 35 percent of people with diagnosable mental ill health in younger years get access to support last week I was in a webinar or a conference session with a guy called Pat McGorry who in Australia established something called Headspace which is a Youth Service it's not narrowly mental health that addresses all of the sort of youth issues it my be sexuality it might be drug and alcohol the shoes it might be work benefits as well as mental health issues but it's easy access non stigmatise you don't have to go through your GP it's a use service and they have centres across the country is now being rolled out in 15 other countries around the world and I think the government should be investing in that sort of Youth Service recognising that although we've made progress in reducing waiting times there are still too many young people waiting a long time or not even getting onto the waiting list because of high thresholds and has Harold's it rightly indicated a stepped care approach so that young people get the response that they need not over the Thornage ising but getting the right response on a timely basis rather than being stuck on a waiting this for long periods of time and as a family ourselves we of experience long waiting times
we know what it's like and you know for teenagers and family so our desperate getting early access to help seems to be to be essential
and fake very much so two presentations there I'm going to open up the other meeting for questions
as I do let me know the chat box if you have a question I'll start with one for Harold if I may which is I didn't know Tiss a year on year figure in terms of how the waiting times for assessment and treatment for Lucian children may have changed over the last 12 months do you have a sense that it's stable that it's regressing or it's progressing
I could see Brenda's on Newton Omar's or me I wonder if I really would have the once he thought there should any as I was the previous Service Manager and which is where I look fat and I think I I I'm probably well able to see the difference going back 18 months two years now and I would say it's sustainable I've seen I've seen very sustainable activity and and certainly initially said the after I left Lewisham I was quite worried thinking Well we've done it now but what if it all comes back again and it hasn't it's it's it's remarkably stable and getting better I'm confidently looking forward to Lewisham waiting lists reducing reducing both the number and in timescale Omar's nodding and certainly has been a great part of this but I think in the systems and processes would be put in place a Parthia Chief that we've we've got a much more more robust front door so as well as dealing with long waiters we've also been dealing with much faster dealing with people coming in the front door and making rapid decisions about what to do and ensuring that that happens so that has helped enormously over the EU wanting to
in an odd is that is that when you put that challenge to us about wrapping 150 people waiting over 15 totally unacceptable
as you know we are not the way to be pledge to put that right by by March we Debelle before Matt if he was really a challenge for us to think about the next stage for just 39 return 18 and we've done that and and certainly if you look at 39 people anymore waiting 39 which the should mean anyone there about 40 odd people they've all been appointment letters for it so we are tackling incrementally in a way that doesn't just seem like a one-stop shop
and then sort of silly from waiting to go to get back to the same position of was a couple of years ago were really progressing foreign I think so my staff understand the need for people not to wait his not acceptable even though it's usual to wait a long time is not acceptable to wait six months or a year or or however long people have waited in part so I can certainly say that our ambition to go towards our 18 retired mean beyond that and could I just add also in the data pack slide 16 and 17 do talk to the average weighted time now of course one of the things we're making sure of is that we've maintained the urgent speed
and then we've got to clear the backlog of weight so you know we've said previously one of the challenges is if you're doing a really got good job of clearing your backlog very long waits sometimes an average can look like it's worse when you're doing the right thing but we've got a broad measure in the slide pack and we certainly are looking to you know I think that with all things bodacious is making sure that you you've got the child that really helps you do to tackle the problem you got it in front of you but we keep an eye on it broadly and then we've we've got the work on those those recurring repeal I think the other thing that's been helping is
the system that has been put in place of calling people on the waiting list so you know an assessment or referral that was done a year ago is worthless you'd have to do it again for it to be at all valid and keeping contact with people as their waiting enables you to constantly reprioritise and and pick things up if if if they are becoming more urgent so that that is sustainable as well
thank you and an unwelcome Omagh I have a question from live Councillor jostle frankly next
go headless pregnancy thank you very much for such a detailed presentation I just wanted to ask a couple of questions one was to you how much you what was to you Norman the first one Herald on page 18 of the PEC you know all the data and I was looking at the caseload by age and looking at Lewisham's quite high percentage of 10 for two year olds
which is worrying for me and given that you've you know the discussion has been about looking at much more intensified work in school and also alongside youth organisations and other organisations that work with young people I'm wondering how we can as she said extend the provision particularly using a electronic means video means all the different things that young people have much more much more comfortable with because I was quite taken aback by that compared to some of our neighbours
so on page 80 and looking appreciating that numbers of broadly similar between the well boroughs just about but I'm and you know you know I'm talking about notion because I represent last August I understand I just think you know you're actually at EU high in that age group because that's the age group before transition from primary school to you know to secondary school is one of those areas that has you know is is is very important to young people and to the parents as well because it's a very traumatic time sometimes for that transition and I was just thinking of ways that made as you've saying of looking at new ways of working how that can be looked at particular though that particular age group
who would like to respond to the horrible they are held
I can't hear
sorry I can't hear
we can't hear you
yeah it's not me let Assistant of Omagh OK I mean I can respond to say that that that the first thing we probably should say that is the point at which we would expect there to be an increase of presentations are going to say that the point of transition that that's the point of
often young people getting into to social disagreements and that can exacerbate
that the where it might be that it's presented to mental health services tier area mental services I would say there's a positive in that we're not seeing a huge rise of younger children or even the old turn where we would expect most of the other sort of longer-term mental sources to to rise the the offers in terms of these mental health schools are which is just about to Ian rolled out in starting that will start to have an impact
at one stage about half of our referrals were to the school's team so that we saw a huge increase a lot of it was was directed towards our school team so and some of that that caseload will be within that so it will look like we've had an inflated number but actually remained Welby treating many of them within schools or exactly they Atakora Corey Anderson's seem to quite a bit what a biggish team and it looked as looking to expand its about nine to 10 schools and will be looking to extend the on as as we roll it out beyond pilot if you like fares OK I mean I mean that out
to my second question it's too to Norman and after the work you do with the police because one of the issues particularly with young black men has been when they are going about their normal business on the street but get stopped by the police and if it escalates in escalates escalates and some young people any group of young people may well have a level that just blows and then the way the police respond to that and sometimes is unfortunately unacceptable and causes a huge upset for families in the community I just wanted to know what work you might be doing with the police so that they understand the the the way there they behave with young people and what the sort of the issues of the young people's mental health all young people's mental health when they get stopped by the police so I wonder if there was anything you might want to to comment on that
thank you both first of all I'm quite an absolutely sure your begging are very important and strong point
we do work with the police and indeed on I've asked to go out with a member of staff who works directly with Italy's and goes out in the police car addressing issues as they arise but I think that you know that the future of 5th improved mental health support must be collaboration with Ornadel health trusts working collaboratively with other authorities with other stakeholders including the players and critically with local communities and and getting the right response to someone's needs and you know understanding this link also between poor mental health and involvement in gang violence I think is going to be critically important and we haven't cracked it yet you know there's evidence from Glasgow that a public mental health response to gang violence is effective
and I think we need to be doing far more of that sort of work to support people much earlier on I can't better weather Omar or Harold want to add anything to what I said that there was any I wanted to add a chestnut I think this training and participation within our groups I think is something that's fantastic something I've seen whether central place of safety where young born or adults are taken to section 1 3 6 and the integration that we had in our Committees with police on board has made a huge difference to how police manage young young people others with mental this difficulty and how the the meeting has been huge and aren't quite the other side has not Gang Gang related violence but the you saw firm Cyrte visual aids to support it if the police can visually cease on the Tron like those lanyards with them we went there with a flowers on them and I've given out to see some of my young people a card says I got autism and at least two young people said there was stopped by the police their data but and Eccles changed tack entirely because they could see so I think things measures like this are important but the police and do the training read at it reasoning goes on that premise apologies for falling on that but we can work towards and supporting that and give them recognition about how people my present in intervals and how the impact of you know their power might be to to other young people okay now that that's very helpful thank you thank you very much thank you for Oculus for the costs of those answers before we finish
later on today and the budget cuts we have an item that talks about for integrating referrals that come to the melted multi-agency Safeguarding Hub and go to Cannes but I wondered a fee in the from any few minutes if you had an idea of what this would look like or of how far we are a long knowing what it might look like this closer sort of collaboration between those two front doors so to speak
I think I could say that not directly for Lewisham but I know that the Lewisham Children's Commissioners hadn't looked at what had been done in Croydon where such a system has been in place
with referrals going in through the local authority system and then be are going to comes if they appear to have a mental health component and albeit it would be fair to say the Ross measures in Croydon currently that that was working well
the the the fear that I think it added bat health referrals coming through a local authority system wasn't really borne out
and so long as you have the staffing available arm Salazar system is set up properly and Andy you have sufficiently
provided sufficient information advice guidance to referrers
particularly to GPs with that kind of set up
it can work and I know that the Croydon had taken it from Kingston where it had been
amalgamated there so certainly I I I would personally say that it can become work and there is no reason why we wouldn't be collaborating in that way but it does need to be properly plans
and needs to involve large groups of referrers in advance well in advance
not just you know you can't just expect that GPs will understand this new system they won't but I certainly welcome it in the sense that I really one to make it as easy as possible for refers to to to to send difficulties to us it's really our problem to understand where feral should go not the referrers problem and Eric B to get very exercised when Willian with the case at the moment where we're sent from one team to the other sort of problems on our problem and and really doesn't you know it makes a very frustrated so I think it it's well resourced so that people know that from door understand who they can talk to around making that decision the people approaching the front door in essence it doesn't really matter if it's wrong it you know we can help them through it and I think I'd like to get a say we're perhaps as they have been somewhere and I think in some of moving towards a where you don't have self referrals parenting I think something's wrong rather being told you have to go to your GP of or school who there might say Well I don't know how to do it right able to referral they are the ones who know their child the best so I'd love to get to a stage we want to make sure that our for a system is absolutely right we're getting there but not quite there yet and and I suppose I'd want a robust system within the local authority and then emerging that together which is the difficulty in itself I think could work brilliantly I thank you for that answer because it does seem to me that sort the disproportionality which we've seen on ethnic grounds in terms of getting access to cut early help but suggests when it bit more creative about how the first contact with Maíria just I couldn't agree more with within a because certainly I have pre in previous life worked in a system where we didn't expect that refer as new which service they wanted to refer to they got referred to a single front door and it was for us to work out what sort of referral it wasn't what sort of people we wanted to deploy to deal with it
it and are not included self-referral
I am itself yes I I completely wholeheartedly agree with that vacuum that might of her working again yes we can he hurries I'd like to squeezing it also did you want to do that by I just wanted to add one thing which is that of course for eating disorders we do already have a self referral pathway so it is not something that is completely new it's not the standard but again there's something we've got we can build on it we can make it
I am glad to hear that I have personal experience of the length of time it took to refer or get a child to the right person through the system at a few years ago about and thank you for that so Councillor Barnum whose the cabinet member for children young people not a member of the Committee has beg minded Agence to ask a quick question about funding of because I have a reputation as very easy going Chair I will that I will let Chris in yes we do have time for you if that's the final Crest question Chris go ahead
thank you very much at as as Councillor sober says normally the committee scrutinising me rather than mai asking questions but I was really pleased to hear everything you've said and Harold you'll remember the first time you and I mma it was in rather more fraught circumstances in in terms of waiting list so it's really good news I really wanted to to ask a question about funding because we had that we as in the Council had a correspondence with the CCG over the last year or so as did the Children's Commissioner because it emerged that the proportion of the mental health budget that our CCG was spending on young people was below the average nationally and markedly below some other London boroughs that we compare ourselves with I'm really pleased that the CCG has addressed that and they put in additional funding last year and this year my question really was I know South London or more is only part of the picture in terms of mental health provision but have you felt that are you feeling that or on how they feel the EU on the resource front
it it has gone to the front line and I think that's testimony to slams position that it's taken the funding and ensure it's gone through two camps and front line staff and the results that you seen and the ability to talk of work in schools and the like is testimony that that's what's happening but I think Oby you may even have
I don't have anything else to add or I think the answer is a resounding yes for an absolute any problem is in some ways we can't get the staffing Brecon that there has been some of Leighton recruitment that's probably and we're not alone in that but but what we have found his just treating a culture of of work and and and promise towards a better service has stood of invited certain people into the service so slowly getting to a stage where we're over recruiting and we getting what I have found is it's really difficult to think about how you could do the same service cut it in half an expected and more
we're not really having the conversation because there is a really impossible conditions to have and and I think we're now really looking forward resisted a meeting earlier today will rethink about what sorts of errors do we want to invest in to think about expanding the service even more what what areas are we not really touching so much onion other vulnerable young people learning disabilities Eta Austin that's all Trophy so I think we're in a reap positive way that if we certainly as a very sustain it we've got a very healthy service of before by be very proud of it I don't have to represent all of us are but but myself and I do compare ourselves to other boroughs and we compete favourably but but but with justly exposed but but but there but I think it's also fair to say is it not that we spelled despite improvements can don't compare well parts of London and certainly the rest of the country in terms of the funding of our trust when you look at weighted population you know taking target deprivation so no that remains a challenge we have to keep fighting making the case for improving that
and and agreed with the access doesn't the other so much more though to to the absolutely and the 500 million this week no that the analysis shows that it up the 500 billion announced in the spending Review the analysis by people at the Health Foundation NHS Confederation so on suggests that it's it's not enough to meet the increased demand which has come about as a result of covert you know where we're likely to see blazing demand for mental health services as as a result of the sort of psychological fallout from covert so you know this is a battle we have to keep fighting
thank you very much for that I think that's a a bit of a theme that's gonna run through this evening government funding not meeting demand a thank you thank you very much for those for those reports in answering the questions one of my council colleagues as asked about how we can see how these exciting you sort of programmes the pilot you mentioned normal how well are we implemented and I think the only way is is to have you back some time in the future so you can report on on the on its progress but reacting much I thank you that's good good to hear thank you for your time and I have to say goodbye to 6 that move onto our to our next item but again thank you thank you thank you but by pipe
so as I said we I've and I expect the Committee will wish to return to this subject when it discusses its work programme said next year
and get a move on to next item which half an hour has been are allocated this is embedding Race Equality in Lucian schools and raising the attainment of black Caribbean pupils we have a report that's been circulated but we also have picker shall whose executive Director for children and people at Lewisham council and Penycae I know that you you would like to add item information before we go to sort of questions from from lenders I as I said to our previous speakers I do like to have the lion's share reserved for for questions and comments but I know there's some information you do want to add to what's in the report and also bearing in mind that the report
cannot be of the length that we would ideally like it to be given the pandemic circumstances and and are need to deliver critical services alongside maintaining these scrutiny duties typically for ready our learn I'll go over over to you now

6 BAME attainment

thank you Chair struggling to open the presentation on shames everyone second
it's never catches him and paid it
we saw a concentrated open I'm going to open up the slides that you have related because it's on my other laptop if you do want to refer to anything and you can't remember the detail I can
look it up for you I can I got up as you go or a date or or something and I felt I'd gone old school that will print out to the size and from seeing as well well case let's let's fall back on that OK
if you would like I could share your presentation through my screen thank you Mr. a dot short happen too much in Adel message before saying I've got some network issue so Mike prey's onto Kings and apologies if that happens
I'll just do to very quickly so shall we have a corresponding earlier on so I'm going to flip through these very very quickly and then can get some space for questions thank you so if we just move quickly through the first couple of slide so if we've got a summary of the activity has happened over the summer in Lille being on concocts there's a little bit of information which was in the cover report around a school's Race Equalities Steering Group which was established in June so it's relatively new and has met and meets very frequently which I also attend as well
and then I thought to be good just to kind of focus a little bit more in the next two to three slides so can a white matters in in in Lewisham so it actually matters because because every child regards the background deserves an excellent education we know that the black-cab in people's have been present in Haskell's for some considerable length of time and there are significant percentage of the child population with illusion and you got the stats there in terms of the school census results we also know that the achievement of progress particularly for black Caribbean pupils are pupils of that carping heritage is lower than than other groups of pupils both again to primary school and the end of secondary school
in terms of WG analysis meeting on the broad analysis shows that cover up of black pupils are 100 cheap but particularly those of Black cabin heritage and those with a next White and Black Caribbean heritage for black African pupils generally attainment is higher but of course that hides a range of different can have groups are and under the category Gus Africa's obviously very large continent
we'll also know and I know that you know best you you you look to this has as a committee before I before I try to join Lewisham that there is a relationship between a the attainment of a black Caribbean pupils in particular and exclusions and they the groups with the lowest attainment typically those with the highest level of exclusions to cause copyright Wilson the attainment of black Caribbean pupils with free school meals is similar to that of black our people's without free-schools and that's not the same if you look at other groups so there's something around the ethnicity that is discrete and distinct in terms of black Haddin people's
so as part of the work to kind of do to understand better what what sport what's been going on the pollution learning which is a partnership between the Council and schools commissioned a researcher Dr N Edina dirty to untaken research as part of that she interviewed 56 parents and
what those parents said to her broadly was what we would expect probably have expected them to say per which is they they they felt that there were not enough black staff in schools and particularly at a senior level and Scholes
they felt many parents felt that the way schools are organised the policies within schools and the the way in which those policies are managed by staff who of course are mainly of mainly white meant that there was less interest and focus on the experience of our children and particularly black boys
and not a recognition of the wider experienced that term that that that the young people again particularly Blackboys experience on the streets of emotion and none of see those an earlier discussion around that
also that the communication between schools and parents was not good enough and appends feel that that there was an area the need to be critically improved and the curriculum doesn't represent the local community and in particular doesn't represent the Black Caribbean community
so though the work that's been going on with schools there they the reflections are results from from the research of led to a series of recommendations these were contained in the report that was published previously and look to go through the bullet points but you'll see as a whole range of recommendations listed there that are being picked up by the race equality as Steering Group the first of which is a letter to go out to all parents and that current that letter is currently being drafted and Shippy going out should happen all of our schools those recommendations around to helping a policy in racism recommendations around the curriculum recommend and doing more analysis in terms of what's happening with young people across the borough and also recommendations around improving communication more generally or with parents and his reference to you said we did kind of mechanism around the and the last thing I just wanted to go focus on was the pledge so a kick a key recommendation is for there to be a pledge per which is shared by all schools across Aleutian and prominently displayed in those schools and schools are currently can are working on that pledge and the the ideas that that will set out very clearly to pep to family to parents and indeed the young people the expectations that we collectively have and the ambition that we have to ensure that we are improving outcomes for all of our BME pupils but particularly those with a black Caribbean heritage so I've rushed through that reasonably quickly Chair and hopefully that leads a bit of space for some questions
thank you it was at pace but it was very eloquent Penycae and I think you've you've really highlighted some really important stuff so I thank you for that presentation so I'm now take questions please show in the Czech function if you'd like to ask a question of Pinnock you'll make a comment on the report and the plans that have been outlined it it is seen as a subject this committee has looked at four
number of years and obviously delighted that of the launch of this of this certain EU programme so I will start with and Councillor Jack wishes
sorry I am
advised that the meeting late we can I apologise and I've had so to half my seat from from Nash that their business rhetoric a couple of times and I'm not quite sure what's going on there are it's all come up now so I can read that and 8 she's asking me that then a declaration of interest that I notified her of which is that I am a Trustee of the short breaks provision in Lewisham thank the project that provides short break provision in Lewisham the Ravensbourne project I am a trustee and so when it comes to the budget cuts that that the short breaks provision is one of the things that's mentioned and so I think it's C 0 7 I need to Clare an interesting what I wanted to ask about ease
the face it you just say Penycae about relevance of curriculum and representation in staff and so on around children of African Caribbean descent those things don't seem to affect other what might be described as racial minority groups as much and I wondered if this any research going into why it seems to affect that particular racial group rather than other minority groups for example the population of Chinese dissenting to do extremely well in scope of Asian descent tend to do quite well in sco Black African children do better than Black Caribbean children and I wonder if there's research done in two that you know why is that particular group who when other racial groups will suffers similar disadvantage why it seems to hit that group particularly hard
there's an excellent questions
it's almost as if the pitch the response in terms of the answer it's there's a range of really complex things going going on here so there is a there is an issue if you talked to young people particularly young people Black Caribbean heritage they talk significantly around not seeing people like themselves in positions of authority not actually just within schools but more widely across institutions and that has a profound effect in terms of their their interaction their relationship with with institutions achievements of children that that the things that Leat
On many and varied one of which is around a identity and relationship to to people in authority worse lity herself there's also something about the family background but something around accumulative focus around education you talk about her children of Chinese heritage second generation Chinese children children the there there was a very strong focus within the families in terms of education actually if you look at 3rd and 4th fourth-generation that's not necessarily quite at the same level so these things can move around and change and in this the feature of poverty so parties of is is another another feature here the final thing that probably should talk about is racism so for for young people with a black Caribbean heritage if you look at a range of indicators in terms of disproportionality permanent be are more disproportionately affected than other ethnic groups so I think there's a very as a mixer things taking place here including identity and an relationship to people in positions of authority but is also the family dynamic peculiarly to dynamic poverty races and all of these things interplay around this but that's no credibly brief response for a very very complicated issue thank you very much are now as I say I hope that there's some proper research going on somewhere to really unpick this because this seems a very significant thing thank you
thank you jacket and furious finicky I think Clive is next I am I don't see your name in your in your e-mail identity is that you Clive
no it's not not me only for I have QT
look I think that that might be mine o Lionel opened Councillor alone so lying on its EU OK apologies for not recognising or please ask your question OK so I'm thanks for that term and thanks for your report presentation Piddocke soils and wanted to turn the curriculum and in light of some feedback I've had from constituents parents even during or after Black history month some feeling that while there are cut or not towards that in schools that the still some feeling that a lot of the Cook what's being taught
this is still quite to distil focusing on kings and queens and I and I sort of western perspective so I won't even this elaborate a bit more on what you've found that boys being torn skills them properly represent the back camping Kinsey if he could offer some examples of that and also particularly how the Council to extend come at Council really intervene in that beyond just to making recommendations
yeah so opposite all Vasco's have to appraise within the context of national Wrexham her which she set nationally
the National of the way in which the content of the national curriculum has changed over tell barn so it is moved more to facts and figures and less to kind of investigating so you know I'm personally not sure that was a good direction but that that that that's the way in which the national curriculum her has moved
within that national curriculum there is flexibility though for schools in terms of the the content and the focus of what they're delivering within within the curriculum
and I still being heard yes yes yes go ahead so everything's prose on my screen there for second apologies so the said their awesome flexibilities each school does that things in slightly different ways so the Council cannot determine what the delivery of the curriculum is from school to school to school what we can do is work with skills to generate a discussion and a focus to ensure that what is delivered in those skills is more appropriate for the local population and we're talking here about black Caribbean can express his cause much wider than that and intended being more appropriate locally for all of the children whatever their background whatever the put whatever their ethnicity is so one of the recommendations you'll have seen I think from the cover report is for each school to set up a groups looking at the curriculum and looking for the opportunities within that Krikken despite the constraints that are set nationally to find opportunities to do things better and differently and more more more relevant for for the children within the within the school for some schools their high percentages of black Caribbean youngsters in some schools is high percentage of children from other backgrounds so it's not a blanket approach needs to be nice to work for the school the key thing is for all schools to have those discussions that focus and that change and I think that's the role of the Council in terms of supporting facilitating prompting nudging that the not telling schools what to
and gave us helpful and speculative and for your answer the I know once could I know well are they thought off their own bat started revamping the curriculum in the summer with emphasis on peace stage 3 where this more latitude as to what you can include because of Michael Gove very traditional you know minded reforms Councillor Johnson Franklin next
so I think I sorry us looking at something I thank you very much Piddocke for updating us I just got three quick questions one is on supplementary schools and which is obviously something that many of the parents have indicated I know from some of my residents of Ulster said that when Lucian over 25 years ago had a raft of supplementary schools are a member or two of my friends ran to their local churches that all disappeared when funding disappeared and the use of premises disappeared and a whole range of things that actually scared off local groups developing things for their own young people so I am interested to see how that could be developed in relationship to you know a Lewisham way of supporting our young people and secondly I just wanted to ask about the budget you've said in the report percentages 100 thousand becoming from notion learning I'm going to ask a very silly question is that enough
in terms of what you know what's being planned over the three year period and my third point is is really about the monitoring of the recommendations because what's been highlighted is very clear and very precise and obviously had a lot of input from local parents which I think is absent fantastic I think the key issue is how is this going to be monitored are they going to be key performance indicators you might put into these recommendations so that the end of the three years because it is crucial for us because we've been talking about for the past 10 years you know and we do need to ensure that we could see some improvement so I wondered what how that will be a monitored thank you thank you Chair
his own first question and supplementary schools where a person number conversations with different people from her from from Black her in communities and using the plural their delivery
about the potential for the council supporting a new Supplementary School in Lewisham so that's an active conversation and engaged in asked a moment around the rag and the point in which hopefully when that sets up I'm sure that this will commit to come back to this this committee turns the budget is that enough and annex to the next item never going to get enough but it is a significant amount of money yet now I appreciate that as to I thought that when I saw it but I just thought I need in terms of this being a three-year project and maybe other things coming up in terms of additional recommendations that might be initial you know in terms of funding in the future but I understand we are coming from thank you
and in terms of the monitoring so it's a three-year programme and the the race steering group it the school Steering Group meets I think every six weeks or so thinks every six weeks that's a very regular meeting and I had had a session with all headteachers about three four weeks ago and the intention is that we can come back to all schools on a regular basis in terms of the overview of what's what's taking place and through the steering group is the monitoring of what's happening across for schools I suppose going back to the earlier question is not the council's role to tell schools to XYZ but we do have a role to of into provide some leadership and support to the community of schools and I think it schools working with schools that's going to be critical for the this agenda moving moving forward and there will be some and you've seen the the the recommendations so there's some very concrete thing article you can monitor and check that are taking place precludes probably one of the less concrete answers or are I can thank you very much thank you thank you Chair thank you both I have three more councillors who wish to speak or if it's possible to limit your questions to one each are I can get through most members of the Committee given the actress squeeze time that unfortunately have now that were meeting less often I my apologies to Colin Councillor Elliott you you were next and due to my tech the coal sort of mistake I lost your name but some do please you know and ask a question or make your comment now Councillor Elliott
problem thank you look first OK one applaud you for taking on this initiative because it has been a problem for years not just in lotion but I would say across London so really really want to start by thanking you for making a key initiative for look into what well I really want to I could have a couple of questions but I'm just gonna last one really given the work that's been done in the past by other barrows and other councils and other community groups in your opinion working with the the the Lucian learning and what would be what would week constitute a success after three years what would success look like in terms of what we're really trying to achieve after three years what would you hope to see in what you say this is definitely something that we have achieved after three years what are you looking for so I think they're really concrete kind of outcome would be around exclusions so that we would see that they the disproportionality that currently exists no longer exists I think that's a really concrete and straightforward can about come
I think there is something around the achievement of children within three years it's it's a longer programme in three years but I would hope to have seen see some really clear improvement in educational outcomes of children and young people across key stages and often as a focused on secondary this is a primary school issue as well so it's across the different key stages within within school and I think the third area which is less Kanye concrete is that when I talk to young people they reflect back to me the positive experiences that the having in school in their learning in their ambitions for the future and where they go after school so and I would hope that and it's it's a softer indicator but I would hear those stories reflected back to me and actually as as as a local member that you hear those stories can you tell me that you're hearing their stories as well so that that that's another nothing over really have achieved nothing three years we're not we're not going to change the world in three years
the site is as it is but I think in Lewisham given the nature of the Borough I think we have the opportunity to move things on really positively and be a place that other boroughs kung to to find out of the good the good stuff that we're doing here
excellent thank you very much thank you both and Councillor Caroline clue
thank you Chair I think the only connect you for your
speeches and everything you return thank you very much I'm just wondering with your condition what is the time line for your condition
so it's a three-year programme so the recommended some of those recommendations will be earlier some of them will take long longer to implement the programme is a three year programme
OK for us as a Committee I'm how can we get involved to mixture is actually happening in discourse
because I'm we have got a lot of points for a long time in the Committee and nothing is happening at Tralee practical and a key sorry this restaurant and the parents' stress at all and just wondered how come we as a Committee as councils or help on this situation because these need to be Don you know that the residents have restricted all I you to stressed-out understand Gary's no money and I descend to Wendy everything they suppose see wiping over spent and I was wondering whether we ever spending when are you naturally to Yeowell this secondary school out
while we are getting better than not we don't want to be second at the bottle
primary school they are getting better but we need to be working together I want to know how we can help
I say to him because I think that teachers are neither HAP thank you I think this is probably an answer for the Chair I would be happy to facilitate either per officers of the Council or school headteacher representatives to come back to the Committee in the future to talk about the progress of the programme but which is properly of and point out to actually Caroline his Vice Chair you you've given me an idea Caroline at thank you Piddocke for that suggesting that when we are able that year are I words will put to the Committee if that we arranged visits and go to schools and talk to pupils and teachers and see if we feel a sense of progress a sense of change taking place at some stage next that's key I mean this is some of the Committee agrees collectively but to yes certainly we would like officers or or maybe that some from steering group to report back but I think I will also in the future perhaps the committee could discuss whether we would like to make some site visits when we're able to next year
I need to move on the last question is Councillor John virtue
Councillor Haydn care and grateful thank you very much my question very simple a bit by the way I was on a visit to a school only to that a by team obviously to talk about how they were implementing their computing curriculum so I think you might be more ambitious and try and do that while schools are still operating and excluding extraneous adults like ourselves
the questioner wants you to ask Piddocke is is this is clearly an issue which has raised a large amount of public interest and we all know that and are really grateful for your really good explanation of the problem and the proposed solution unfortunately saw the people who've expressed their interest to a sometimes rather shouty I have not all got conscience to listen to that and and participate in the solution of in the way we're trying to do now of what I think is important is that we produce some very clear quite concise messaging to explain if it's possible to reduce it to one side of A4 as it were
the things you just told us about both the the our analysis of the problem and our FO solution and perhaps to do that at regular intervals and it would be really good if there was patchy Kinsella Surrey something already on the Council website M found but we can promulgate that to the people who are making noises about about Yushan quite rightly
so it is probably the two things to be useful to point in your direction once completed which I think will be soon will be the pledge so that so that that that's something that schools are working on up a moment it's bouncing around to its cause at the moment because Nevett inevitably something like this which is which is really important important to get it right once that's been finalised as the said that is something that should be in a prominent position in skills obviously doesn't work so well on a team's match of teams environment better when you actually physically visited visiting visiting the buildings once that's been completed we will also publicise that as as a council as well and I think it an early concrete outcome of the work and
for a school to put that up in its building they must deliver something you can't put pledge up and they're not to something so I think it becomes a really key concrete can have indicator and commitment from skills and I think will be really important and what's also important it's all of the schools in Lewisham as well that that's that adding that's probably different to what's happened in some other put other parts of the country and London
thank you predicate thank you John for your question will most definitely returned to this we will consider and or whether we can

4 Budget Cuts

make her own assessment virtually or through visits or at a later date is very important to us and and I know we're will return to this quite soon I'm going to close the item however now for tonight and move on to item 5 item 5 are the budget cuts and we're now going to hear not just from Penycae again but I understand David Austin director of corporate resources is also with us we are scheduled finish at 9 32 and a half hours is the the maximum time this allocated under the overview and scrutiny informs for the Select Committee meetings we do how some other business to deal with so what I'm going to suggest is a balmy open up for questions and and and I'm and I'm going to and treat David to keep his presentation very brief we have some very detailed documents that we've all read already no no disrespect David is that and the first round of questions we limited 1 per councillor and hopefully we'll be able to get a second round of questions in how I think I think we have 11 12 Councillors present tonight and and the budget is of a huge interest to everyone so I'll hand over to Penycae and I think 0 Penycae or presenting rather than David
thinking back back sorry David but I'm glad you're here to up to answer questions with us thank you for coming or back to you finicky thank you yeah David is present or turn I'll during President representing hopefully we'll be able to answer the questions as well what I want to just get a bit of a wider context in terms of the the budget cuts are report these got in front of being a be aware whether the parallel report is going to all of the scrutiny committees obviously this report was written prior to the spending Review announcements last night or stuffed estate so some of some information is slightly out of date but the general can a thrust his is still correct the financial impact of what has been really really significant and estimated to be costing the Council about 68 million pounds and Policy rising as where whistling Innis in the second by his own we now know that we're in Tier 2
about 30 million of that relates to costs and about 38 million relates to can have lost income so that that's a really significant amount of money now the government has provided some money to her to meet that that that gap but not enough her so there is an issue in terms of the pressure on the budget for the council which relates to Cove it overlaying that is also an issues in terms of the current overspending pressures that the Council is facing an obviously I'm acutely conscious as the electorate of a Chilean people services that until we are the Directorate of this making a significant contribution towards that that overspend and
in terms of the report said that are coming through to the Council at the moment this effect of about 10 million pounds actually do know because I got sums more recent innovation that figure has has reduced further but it's highly likely it will be an overspend it in Council per at the end of this financial year and the some of those overspends will flow into the now and into the next she one of which relates to the placement costs for children the comprehensive spending Review appears to be suggesting
some money coming to the council but it doesn't look like it's going to be anywhere near enough to cover the gap that that that we are facing as a Council so prior to the spending review early estimates that we had as a council was over the next three years there would be a budget cap of about 40 million pounds
of which 24 million was to be found next year if you add the overspend her which is stated to be 10 million Council I think it's come down a bit since then you're talking at a really significant amount of money for the for the council to find
so what what we've done as officers of the Council is take a can a fiend approach to how we might find a savings and cuts her 2 2 2 2 6 of the plug that gap and so what we we we did was look at her six themes and are listed in the report productivity John working asset rationalisation commercial approach and demand management each Executive director took a lead responsibility for one of the things that I personally took responsibility for productivity we deliberately took responsibly for things which are slightly outside our normal day job and that provided us with the opportunity to ask sometimes the naive questions
and through that work we have identified a set of savings Our that we that we are proposing please include as part of the the budget for next year are but you'll see that that is still not sufficient it's not meeting the full NI the full range of of savings and cuts that need to be found
and so there will be a second round of of proposals which we all currently working on at the moment which I think are worth you'll note about wanting to scrutinise in the New in the New Year
in terms of navigating our way through the proposals Chair what I'm happy to do is to say a little bit under each theme and specifically those proposals that relate to children and people and then I ORS or deal with to talk about I I'm not sure that's necessary are and I certainly itemised all the all the cuts with comments next to them and I I expect committee members had done so thank you for offering and I normally I would under other circumstances but given the that the time limits
and and thank you for explaining the the the the strategy behind the and behind the proposals there are lots of kind of detailed a very thorough concrete proposals in there now and I expect Members and myself to fully focus now on asking you about those and David is that OK for us to start now with the queue and I from it from your point of view that's absolutely Fanshare OK thank you in which case pleased and I am sure people I got
Page or questions that I won't be asked for asking all of them so Members please indicate if he wished to are scum
a question or make a comment on I'm happy to get the ball rolling while people consider the the sort of main question though are awash wish to ask so Pinegar I'll one of the areas we have to reduce in is we hope to reduce the number of children going into residential care and we also hope to be able to negotiate tie to contracts around the services provided that will result in lower costs and I I respect the ambition behind this my concern is that the trend over the last few years I noticed and long feel the Children's Commissioner pointed out between 20 11 and 20 19 the number of children going into residential care has risen 42 percent I also heard from officers and yourself that the number of children that children coming into care are coming into care older and teenagers tend had more complex needs
and there's an their placement is therefore likely to cost more
how realistic given this trajectory are our plans to make these quite substantial cuts in that area
yes I mean there is a national issue that you're quite right to point out her in terms of the number and the costs are recognition placements of of young people and it's also the case you will be aware that at the end of the last financial year her the placements budget in in in Lewisham overspent significantly there is work that has already started to look both at the number of youngsters who required in residential placements and also the unit cost of those placement sunspace the type of placements that therein and an unpoliced to say that during the course of this current financial year and think Turkey in the last few months we have seen both a reduction in the number of children in residential placements and also we are seeing a reduction in the unit cost of those placements the so an introduction I referred to the fact that the overspend for children people services is coming down in it is coming down and the most significant factor that is leading to that reduction is are those two points that number and and the unit cost however I do need to be really clear the proposals that you've got in front of you today relate to a reduction in spend
in around placement costs not a cut to the budget so the budget is set at a certain level and and his overspending and I think has been overspending for some some time has what I'm trying to do with the team that are working with is to reduce the cost and to adjust the spend I'm not proposing to reduce the budget for those placement costs so as producing the overspend the hook the that we've been generating for some years so I think that's a really important kind of an element that further committed committed aware of that thank you that that I think it's a very important distinction and and thank you the clarifying that Councillor Jack pressure
yet as I've got a couple of the points to her can make them one of them is about that there is a proposed
the saving relating to short breaks provision now I'm a trustee of short breaks provider and I have noticed over the last few years the change in the children who are provided with short breaks provision now I am a parent of a now adult person with a learning disability and so I went through this point when when she was a child and the idea behind short breaks provision was that if your child has any significant sort of difference it is very hard to get sort of standard babysitting arrangements that enable you to to live an ordinary life but at the same time the strains that are on you are greater now ei 8 says on navigation she that the there's a significant underspend of budget for short breaks
but my perception of it is that the gatekeeping through such services has become tighter and tighter and tighter and the manager of each short breaks provision where I am a trustee showed me his injuries a Trustees meeting earlier this week put her because we now the children who get sure prigs sometimes really do challenge with their behaviour and one that does result in as for example bite mark scratch marks kick marks or all these things
whereas in the past it was it was as a safe indeed cover those children obviously but also covered those families who did not get appropriate independence for their children by other means their children did not have such independent life particularly when aid recreate J of secondary school age where they might start doing more things on their own when they could take them so as to scouts and didn't need an escort and so on and that does not end for the parents of children with additional needs and so I'm really concerned that saying this money is not being spent because people are not being allowed to need to use that money because that they reason that back that that the gatekeeping is so tight and the other thing that I wanted to comment on if you don't mind Chevy same both my things at once am is when you start talking about transition services transition services in Lewisham have been woeful for years and if you mate meet with any group appearance of 0 for young people that have approached in transition is at a time of a real fear you know and it was expected that things were going to be evened out by extending the H CPC to to 25 for of course they still that Clifford of moving to Adult Services Jake when you are 18 and to take money away from a service that is is not seen as wholly adequate saying over when are we going to change in its or going to work better I I find it a bit worrying so can you explain when things seem inadequate how you're expected to change the place
thank you Chair so if I start with further short breaks solid first so the the spend on short breaks is an excessive 2 million pounds plan so the saving is quite a small saving compared to that what we have been looking at is a range of things around can have how that money is spent so there's there's an element around the provision on you that you you've referred to the provision and in particular and there is a range of different provision operating across across Lewisham or which our young people are accessing
and the costs of that are very very variable of from provider to provider and some some of that provision per is very expensive he look a unit cost compared to 2 apparel provision from from from another provider so we are big looking at the the cost across those different provisions
there is also the element of staffing so we have some inefficient arrangements in lotion at the moment and you've kind of refer to cantons of gatekeeping function and we are overly dependent on social workers and social work assessments as part of that process but we don't always need to be using a social worker to do some of up some of that works who want to look at how we organise our staffing in a more effective by in a more efficient way and in a way that can a more responsive to families and only using social workers who are a scarce resource when when we went when when we need it we need to use them the third element I would refer to is and the use of direct payments so the amount the percentage of spend that we have in Lewisham around direct payments compared to were we as a Council are purchasing permanent the provision from a provider is is quite low so there's something about looking at increasing the level of personal budgets that families can access in use so that families can make more choices about where where that money is money is spent rather than having to be trammelled through a can of a local authority of process so those of the elements that we're exploring that the level of saving that we've allocated against this is small compared to the total budget although every parent will say that putsches not sufficient are totally here that but it's a small percentage of the total budget and what we wanted to do over the next few months is to to thoroughly review all of those elements so the provision the staffing and a balanced winter at per payments and and direct provision to see whether there is a way of doing that in a more effective way her that meets a better than eater of children in Fatman families and also where we can be more equitable so there are some families in some children who with similarly to other children who are getting a lot less in terms of service offer so is this something we need to to intensive looking at looking at our ancient across lotion so that that's proposal at the moment yes I'll stop that point in terms of transition you absolutely correct per and the the change to the next to the introduction of Education Health Care plans what a lot of promises associated with it which I think none of us think happy delivered I would have to note at this point that the extension of the ACPs today to 25 did not come with additional money so that that because that's caused a huge problem in the system what I am really pleased is that there has been some really good work happening with Adult Services Lewisham and Aster that predates my rival so that that was already start happening at birth before I came to the motion and we are just in the process of setting up the new transition Service which include staff who have both Children's are background and focus and south of adults at that random focus to ensure that that journey from 14 plus is a much smoother process than it has been previously so so parents of children now should hopefully have a more positive experience than yours he had when when you were a parent of a youngster can are working booking through that transition and Clifford that parents repeatedly talked to me about as well not a solution but in other places I've worked
and we will this committee will be looking at transition in its of January meeting it sets a very important area that so I think we're all agreed needs needs improving thank you for your answer Councillor Johnson Franklin his next Liz
I can't and finicky I just wanted to ask a couple of questions because I know you made the and you said the difference between a saving and a cut and I wanted to talk about the partner contributions to children in care placements which is as you say a sixth a significant amount of 1 point 2 million the biggest in our sort of cohort of our budget discussions
and I'm obviously part of the plan I appreciate is to look at different blocks of payment that could contribute to those and placements
and I just want to have reassurance that particularly with the High Needs block under the DSG and also under housing benefit that this is going to be realistic he K in terms of finding 1 point to over two years is a huge amount of money on and given the the the pressure on the deer own their high-needs block in terms of a special needs a whole range of factors
I need the reassurance because sometimes things change very quickly and the pressure is on that on that are block to be able to pay a very quickly so that's my first question in my second one quickly is just a very very small and is about the
the troubled families grant because you've indicated that you're assuming an assumption of the 60 per cent of the current trouble Grant will also be also SuMed that will go into the the family support provisions can be developed now as far as I know that family support Grant his yearly is that correct funding yearly so really where only been able to base it on a year
so we could be looking at a further problems in terms of that because that's only assumption OK thank you Chair thank you
because the second question for yeah yeah making a story like a bongo so part of the and unsuccessful was the extension of the toll on his crotch next Sophia OK and unfortunately that's become an annual occurrence in terms of the Grant Keller rolling over what was indicated from government and and and and put on a session with children's minister a few weeks ago was a commitment to continue funding in some form or other whether or not the longer-term as caused trouble on his contests is I guess is another point on personally for being took happy of as a title we know that we did all this work I we didn't know that and so we had a indicated as a pressure on the Council pay a percentage of the current troubled families Grant there is evidence to show that the million pounds as as a contribution towards our early Help system and we the fact the troll on his crutches now there is of course fully of the next year but they still can be a question for the year afterwards so they will both areas because if we bought a proper operating early help system we need that has to be funded so I will note out had these conversations with David her this time next year in relationship to partner contribution if I go to DSG last going to be complicated there are three parts to this so you pick them up so the housing benefit so there are young people who were eligible for housing benefit who had not been claiming that and we have been paying the provider for that accommodation without taking into consideration the benefit that the child or young person should say and with little to access we have now resolved our systems around around that and that is now happening
and so where we have a provision for a young or young personal young adult where we are paying for that accommodation we are not paying for the equivalent of the housing benefit because it is for the provider working with a young person or young adult to ensure that they're getting and that's already happened and that's and that that that's delivered some significant savings to the Council budget it's not a cut the CCG is the current second part of the story and we have had some very positive conversations with the CCT around health contributions for young people where there is a health element to their care costs so historically we have had we have placed a young person in a placements in many cases that young person has had very complicated health needs both physical and emotional mental and we have not always been very good at getting her a CCT or stroke health contribution to cost of that placement we are seeing movement I have say it's it so it's not always a straightforward process but we have seen movement
up around that already in the last couple of months and we are seeing the percentage of contribution and CCG increasing around around those young people and that's right and proper where that can person has a Health NIH clearly it's not appropriate must ask the City's contributing person where the bulk of their can have their need is is around care
the third element is around education contribution to costs and often when we have a youngster in the placement there is an education path to that placement
and for reasons I'm not entirely clear in the past we haven't always ensured that the DSG to get dedicated schools Grant high-needs block with an eligible has said that educating and so that education contribution has been painful within the general fund within social Care part of the General Fund and that is not the right place for that payments to come because it should come properly for the high-needs block within a dedicated schools Grant and so we've been doing that work will Rodion we've already seen a significant shift in terms of the contributions but what you also quite rightly point out is that there are a whole range of pressures already set with an ace Bach the high-needs block is projected to overspend and this this movement ease contributing something anything it is contributing to that that overspend high-needs block but I think that prompts the question why isn't the high-needs block and the estuary that we get in Lewisham appropriate for the needs of your children Young people in Lewisham and actually win that's when no different from other Council across across the country and cross across London so we know that cross London there is a massive gap in terms of the high needs block I didn't see anything about that in the spending review
it is in the detail so you're right it is causing another pressure on another budget yet I cannot just one ask one supplementary question in terms of the 1 point 2 million how did you arrive at that
so we arrived at it in terms of a percentage contribution from the Housing housing benefit which I think was 200 thousand pounds which we have achieved per an assumption in terms of a high-needs block which I think was about half a million but don't quote me that's not my hair and then the remainder intensive CCG I'm hoping that there will get a proposal with a noble we're working on a case by case basis with the CCG but in discussion of a CCG that setting a proper process system and policy and a budget allocated to this and that's that's the hope hope that I have for the new financial year and actually that will be greater than the figures you got in front of you second does happen if our care placements went down the I savings would go down
what now because can wait and I just wanted to be very clear how you've worked up the colour of the the absolute contribution of the CCG will go down that's a good thing because the overall spend will go down yes we want the number of children in residential placements to go out and earn a gnat's one the CCG to spend less money
OK thank you thank you Chair thanks thanks Minister thank you for those persons and so I think the final questions from myself
one is a comment on the calculations were based on I believe a 60 percent assumption of 60 percent of the troubled families grant something to ask David not necessary to do it now but I hope I'm expecting David to issue a note on how the C S are affects our revenue including the information that we now have about the troubled families grant because
obviously some assumption that'd be built into the calculations behind this first tranche of cuts and now we have some additional data I don't need it tonight but I would like to see the changes the have been sorry affected by the comprehensive spending Review
my two questions though for EU Pinnock is on previous occasions we've noted an ambition to reduce the number of agency social workers and their by making savings there by having a high proportion of the permanent in how social workers and we've also noted an ambition to increase the number of Our Lewisham foster parents so that we don't
have to use so many independent foster parents and thereby making a saving there I'm
I have not seen the ambitions of the past realised so could you tell us what you are doing differently to provide the certainty that we can achieve these savings and these levels of foster carers and social workers that are in the
in the report soon listen to social workers and very pleased to say that we've seen an increase already in the percentage of permanent staff in support and social workers employed in in Lewisham we've done that because we think are very proactive at recruiting newly qualified social workers straight from university so we have a coat fought cohort think it took five social workers who started this kind of and this turn of are used can effective language after after university and we're we should have by by Christmas because some of them have got delay in terms of their start dates 80 per cent permanent staffing and target for next year of 90 per cent parents laughing which is entirely achievable that it provided a short-term challenge for us because obviously with musical if I staff they are a less experienced and be there have a reduced caseload but through doing that recruitment we are growing our own in terms of in terms of our in terms of our workforce and to support those staff we have employed and unafraid on agency some additional very experienced staff who are mentoring and supporting them that's a short term basis to kind of support us through through that initial phase so can relationship to social workers we may
and you know as as as a sly aside in my last authority had 100 percent qualified social workers so it's not an unachievable aim but you don't to 1 year ur-text fan to work your way through a layby more achievable in Brighton that it is Lewisham their pinnacle yes lot Brighton pays really badly so that that the Key the key feature of that isn't the pay although of course it was an adventure member stock of course they'll says the pay but if you talk to staff and it's it's the environment in which they work having a clear practice model her having the support arrangements around them in terms of workforce development and really importantly having a learning reflected culture not a blame culture and that that is where you took to social work as those of the things that really attract the men and I did speak to and the newly qualified social workers into three weeks ago and and that one of the things they talked about was they were really the reason applied to Lucian was because of the support we've had in place and the ambitions that we articulated for what we wanted social work to be her illusions so as some really enthusiastic energetic staff just Latry just joined us in Lewisham
foster carers yes unaware there have been some full stops it around her in-house foster carers' you'll notice in the proposals that you've got there's no saving listed for next year there are saying arrives in the year 2 of that and that's really deliberate because we need to we need to do the work in terms of the fostering service that means that foster carers are feel more positive about being a foster carer in in Lewisham in terms of the wider support arrangements although have so I and carefully meant the camp the cabinet member were at her foster care celebration of at last Friday and lots of really positive stories coming coming from those foster carers so there's something about that wider environment that we need to get get right which I don't think has been quite writing the past and then we need to ensure we've got very clear system and I systemised systems system attired processes for
marketing ourselves and recruiting people to to become foster carers in Lewisham which we haven't I think done very effectively in the past and that also includes people who are already foster carers for agencies making a choice to come to Lucian because they see that the offer Baker
better than they are getting for an independent fostering agency there is quite a lot of work to do around that and will take time and as you start to get the applications coming through those then approximately a six-month process of approval for foster carers so it's deliberate that there is no savings identified for next year it is a saving for the subsequent ear her current percentage of in-house foster carers in Lewisham is very very low so it should not be difficult to increase that percentage significantly over two to three year period to period but I think it will take us at least 12 months together
thank you and the low
for generating some optimism there that's that's that's very clear I had heard that our social work pay rates are not very competitive compared to neighbouring boroughs the combination of that and house prices made me an concerned but you've you've reassured me that it is it is seen as an attractive and supportive environment and that is is wonderful to hear and and you know I I commend
yourself and Lucy in the Department for you know for creating that culture David Austin would you like to safety words about those details in CSR concerned troubled families Grant and the High Needs block before before I move on David you want to
I'm not sure I'm I haven't heard back from David I
provide reasonable written information is due on share with Committee before I I close this item David and just firm why put in the note but for the record publicly that as many to trouble finding on his continuing I believe I saw that the does not only about money has been carried over effectively
the CSR confirmed a broadly a roll forward clearly that hasn't been the time for the distractions of covert to to do a lot of the resetting of local government finance that had been planned so in the broad sense it's a roll forward what I was trying to say was we don't get the details for Lewisham particularly given some of the levers the government can put around its levelling up which might work against London particularly until we get the provisional finance settlement and that won't be until later into December site if you were hoping for the detail before
this report as to Mayor and Cabinet went beyond just because we won't be able to provide that detail the anything I can say additionally is that the big number that gives more money to local government isn't coming from government it's coming from the flexibility for us to raise council tax above inflation and in particularly essential can additional social care precept levy of up to 3 percent of Council Tax
I decisions needs to be made by a elected members of the Council thank you very much before I move on Councillor Bill Brown who is chair of the overview and scrutiny committee and the next efficient member of of this committee would like to speak Bill
hello luxury time I just wanted to check if what coming to the end of this 8 m when we will be putting the farmers in with regard to moan cabinet with regard to the budget proposals and that's a very good question I'm not sensing a consensus around a specific referral and our response would go obviously would go to public accounts Committee first
and then and then through them onto onto very cabinet I am intending to attend the public accounts Committee and what I'm
hoping to do is to present a digest of what I've heard tonight and sort of carry over some of the main points that Members have shared this evening
they even if a minute sorry Kim digit to clarify any refer was from a Select Committee law the goal through PE PSE our direct command cabinet and it's not father doesn't need the agreement of PAC etc. servi select committee that makes it point for referral caused I recommend cabinet them the PAC to conjugate but also I have just put in the chat function in his refers to an e-mail which I said to colleagues at all the last couple of weeks this was a refer which was agreed at the
and it's been explained in the e-mail to colleagues a week or so ago and people can read it in the chap from should now and it's just based on feedback from all of huge Goodney colleagues generally that the would like this kind of information in the budget options going forward there obviously is not appropriate Balfour what we've looked at tonight but with the proposers coming up in January that includes this and his points which have come from feedback from of your student college so I would like to propose if they're your care chair that vis refer to this committee and yet suddenly so yeah I'm OK so on the table from from Councillor Brown is the proposal that we make the following referral which is that them in the upcoming Budget reports those we are expecting and will be scrutinising and our January meeting the following information being included the impact of a proposed caught on the users of the service the impact of a proposed cut and staff of the service the impact of the cut on this service over all the cumulative impact of the cut on the London Borough of Lewisham as a whole this things to be very helpful proposal a way of are presenting the effects of cuts probably more accessible to to the public as well as to members
so do I have a seconder Council of Jack pursue your seconding this so is the is the Committee
absolutely happy to put it so its weight behind this referral
that said being presented by by Bill by Councillor Brian I certainly am then want to speak against it
in which case I'm happy for to go forward
great great great yet agreed thank you card it so thank you Bill at the bring that today thank you everyone for for supporting it that all that will go through through the public accounts Committee to moan cabinet business sort clarify so before we move on to our next item thank you very much David Penycae for that I would just like to mention that I'd like to say something to go on the record one of the things that Liz I think identified was how we are having to
draw on funds from the dedicated schools Grant and the Clinical Commissioning Group because we desperately need them to provide the care that the local authorities responsible for and the reason having to do this because of course this government has spent the last 10 years including this year the year of a of a prolonged national pandemic
underfunding as a political choice local authorities
and this has done great harm in my opinion to children young people not only in Lewisham but in London and across the country and is nothing short of a national scandal and I commend Lewisham officers for doing their utmost and to mitigate this and I will now move on to of the next item
which is the item 6 the response to referrals

3 Responses to Referrals to Mayor and Cabinet

and ask Councillor jump issue to speak I know you've been patiently waiting to add some comments on this proposed on the only response that you then give examined closely care low thank you thank you very much I know now problem waiting at all because I've been fully caged in forget things you been discussing tonight I certainly don't want to try and start a a lengthy discussion as yet another lengthy he's got to this night in the lower in time is not meeting and I don't want to come over life is a risk of it as one of those Councillors in bangs on Laurent about a pet projects until the cabinet member is sick to death of it I don't even know Councillor Bonhams in the meeting still but I think it's important that the Committee does not let go of this because the history of it I can't remember the exact dates of the history of it you might be better that keeping track of your agendas and minutes 0 well and yet you are still here Christ but this that the Committee raised a referral Turner and cabinet because of that the failure so serious that the Ofsted inspection of our Children's Services notice it and it's something that was so serious that it was a factor that we recorded as the motivating staff to start working for us and go and seek jobs elsewhere that the that the referral does not give me a great deal of comfort and that in itself is now a be out of date and the situation might have changed radically and I would be happy for officers to reassure us that he had but I would still look critically at that reassurance and extracts it's not really it's not way and in the sense that I question not only perhaps some basic competencies in managing IT systems none of children young people staff of course for eight basic numeracy and and I refer you to paragraph 5 point 6 of the response which is one of the places where it's tries to convince this committee that the the number of events reported as as I T Phelps that need is fixing has gone down because a eight shows a table if we drew that the graph we proceed more clearly shows a table where there's a high number of events and Liza folks in IT that needed sorting out its after it goes down a bit then it goes up a bit goes down a Best comes back up of it goes down a bit and then the last figure which looks like it's some satisfactorily coming down is only reporting half of the period of the previous periods I'm sure Chair that you're Numa enough to a spotty that as well
he then goes on and I don't want to go on so I'm sure tenders of ready niftily hadn't I'd urge them to it then goes on from Castle the all sorts of things that it justifies as accessible when they are on was most organisations would regard a serious breakdowns and this is not a situation that's just affecting CYP it is not a situation that it's it's a situation that's affecting various functions of the Council it's not something that's under the control of Penycae I'd suggest or see what I pay staff in general because some of these are completely corporate might my suggestion chair is the this is still a serious situation which has not been remedied this report does not when you read it properly and carefully confirmed that it's been remedied and I think the CYP Select Committee would do well to keep this under review as something which is seriously particularly impact impacting the performance of children's services in possibly many other parts of the directorate
that's that's all I've got to say Chair but Sir Eric you said you had spotted some of wives potty toad and I'm not surprised and thank you for the time to do that I leave that in your hands
thank you John for
and to identify those units ongoing or problems and press Councillor Bonham I don't know whether you are sort of sufficiently briefed to be able to respond now but if you aren't can you take those concerns
back with you I am very happy to I mean and briefed it in a kind of negative sense in that during the period that I was chairing the Children's social Care Improvement Board which has now been wound up on the place without of mechanisms
I T and its shortcomings and its impact on the service was a regular item of discussion and frustration that are you mezzo getting away from that was causing a lot of problems
I do have regular discussions with Lucy Hayes on performance in the service and you can't prove a negative necessarily but this is not an issue that is raised very frequently now I can't remember a discussion with Lucy about problems with the IT and indeed there had been some significant steps forward so I've got I've got no reason to argue with the points at Johns making but in terms of the service and the way it operates and the way in which our social workers are able to do their jobs there is much much less noise about the IT than there used to be but I'm very happy to take those issues away and and and you know look into the employee
make one further comment
I've had picked out that that it's the right approach
to the Cabinet Members just assured us all
I I think though that part of the problem is the Bari's love we have started from a really low point if if you look more widely if you look outside of this organisation to certainly some other Local authorities not all of them but some other local authorities had are doing significantly better at the Cern general hand in supporting children Services and certainly organisations in in the wider world are put will aspire to much higher standards them we are so I think part of the problem Easter each not as bad as it used to be but that doesn't mean it's as good as we should expect it to be
thank you John and and thank you Chris maybe you could collect your findings and unsent an e-mail ran two committee members when you get the chance after you that's gone back to loosen to see if that is is her understanding
so thank you both I will I'll finish the item now that was an item 6
and when our final item item 7 is to select committee work programme

7 Select Committee work programme

we are limited to a maximum of three items per Select Committee and
the January agenda is therefore to full we have a new item but we weren't expecting when we last met and set out our work programme and that is a further wave of budget cuts we have as I alluded to earlier an item on send transition from young people to adult services and STRAT pointed out that this is something that so I think quite urgent we should look at her and I'm global will have the opportunity in January and we are waiting for a corporate parenting and children looked after Annual report and so those are the three items there was the possibility the potential that we would examine another Mayor and Cabinet response to one and that was the the response to our our in-depth review last year on families in temporary accommodation but in fact in March we have our six months so the monitoring
item on chill and families and children temporary accommodation so I'm going to suggest that we put both
those two halves are there item together and look at it in the in March unless there are any sort of sort of revisions of people want to propose or I'll go ahead with that as the the content of our next meeting we do however have to more opportunities to meet before
when is it Thursday the 21st is Annette Select Committee meeting we have a an engagement meeting with the Young Mayor and advises on the 14th of December I think this is at 5 30 in the past we've met over pizza which has been a delight this you will be meeting through these
promote video means but I understand there will be a quiz and it's a really good opportunity to engage directly with children and young people and so I hope as many Members as possible are able to attend
and I've also taken on board the recommendation of our last Committee meeting
which was to make contact with the Chair of the Safer stronger Communities Select Committee who scrutinised the Youth offending Service although as we discussed last time that services now under the am sort of functional leadership arm of the Executive Director of children and young people so we have an invite as a result of my discussion with Juliet to attend their meeting Safer stronger meeting on January the 14th 1st of January the 14 which is when they are scheduled to look about item so those are the dates we have in front of us
unless there is some any urgent business or anything I've I've missed out 0 just one thing and for Emma we need to record Councillor Juncker shoes pursuit in the in the Declaration of interests as he is disposed of Councillor Jack parachutes to her her interests are his in in the year
in terms of council protocol so that's it for this evening it's been a very as usual a very kind of intense evening and I thank everyone for their patience and all their contributions where the listening and and noting asking questions and and and giving some very valuable and comments
and I wish you all
a good evening including our visiting Councillors
and I will ask a our officers to terminate the transmission of the meeting please now so to everyone could night