Safer Stronger Communities Select Committee - Tuesday, 1st December 2020 at 7:00pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Safer Stronger Communities Select Committee
Tuesday, 1st December 2020 at 7:00pm 









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1 Minutes of the meeting held on 9 September 2020
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2 Declarations of interest
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3 Response to Referrals from this Committee
4 Update from Lewisham Police
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6 Select Committee work programme
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  1. Webcast Finished

thank you good evening everyone my name is Councillor Juliet Campbell and I am the Chair of the Safer and stronger Select Committee welcome towards her Committee members officers of visitors and all the members of the public that of you in online
I am before we start the meeting I've got some housekeeping to share with you around easing virtually petitions so could I remind Members of the Committee to keep their cameras on throughout the meeting with your microphones muted presenters earn officers please keep your cameras switched off and your microphone muted until you are invited to speak
I am should anyone wish to ask a question or make a comment could you this type a queue in the chat function to indicate that you wish to speak at any point during the meeting I'm please remember not to use the channel for any general discussions and just to remind the to everybody if you do get disconnected from this meeting due to any technical difficulties please just use the same link that you were sent initially to return to the meeting please note that this meeting is being webcast and a recording Mawby available on the Council website so welcome everyone but before I start the beginning of their formal part of the meeting I just wanted to I noticed that he was in the meeting and I wanted to recognise and thank Gary Conor Bess Head of Crime and enforcement and regulation and because Gail believe in us after a number of years with the Council Ms Gurney moving on to pastures new so I just want to take this opportunity to properly Keith a thank you for all the work that you've done with this Committee or the smoke support you given to the Committee and and congratulations on your new role and we wish you all the St
I welcome carry
apologies for absence to we have any apologies Katie
apologies for lateness from Councillor Davis ex-officio member
while on the agenda minutes of the meeting held on the 9th of September can we agree that those minutes are accurate and a true record of the meeting
just say yes

1 Minutes of the meeting held on 9 September 2020

agreed Chad a grade habilis thank you I'm item to does anyone another any declarations of interest

2 Declarations of interest

members were asked to declare any personal interests may have on any item and if you could also specify what the activities
no brilliant moving swiftly on to Item 3

3 Response to Referrals from this Committee

and this is a response to the Committee's in-depth review in how the Council embeds equalities across all of its services and on the printed papers on page 15 to 28 so this is a response from the Mayor and Cabinet to the Committee's recommendations from his most recent in-depth review and I invite Paul Allen Anohni Car Service Group Manager policy development and analytical insight to present the response welcome pool
yes so as the Chair has mention this isthe Mayor cabinet response to the in-depth review the Committee's in depth review I'm just setting it out the responses are set out under the different recommendations are just summarise the responses for you recommendation 1 fairly should duty should be established required the Council to consider social economic disadvantage in decision-making as the Committee would be aware the there has been an ongoing engagement with the Committee in respect to the separate piece of work which I'll touch on as part of this response but specifically it's a Single Equality Framework which makes reference to the social economics and the importance of so for economics as a factor in equality and in addressing a disadvantage relating to
to socio-economic status there's also this response or set sets out and also highlights the additional piece of work that's being done in respect of the corporate equality policy to make sure that that better reflects socio-economic disadvantage with respect to the fear pollution duty the response highlights the fact that work is going to work is being done
to look at this in more detail in fact I can update the Committee and note that colleagues have looked at the fairer Scotland duty in more detail particularly how that duty structured in terms of its in terms of finance in in terms of the sort of Board of policy framework to see how we can incorporate that and and builder a similar structure relating to to Lewisham's are have sought a theologian duty was are having discussions with our colleagues in legal as to how we can how we can make this work as well so though so that's being taken forward a recommendation to regarding intersectionality just for the committee now again this is a piece of work that's been part of separate a separate discussion nor going discussion with the Committee again late into the Single Equality Framework in fact I note that intersectionality will be one of the prisons within the Single Equality Framework challenging officers to identify specifically how a intersectionality as well as other equality issues are impact upon that decisions and are represent potential risks that need to be mitigated again as elsewhere
the intention is to make sure that this is reflected much I'm I'm much more clearly in the corporate quality policy source of feeding into a wider programme of work being led by the Director of Law governance of human resources whereby we are looking at the council is looking at a strategic framework
that has equality and diversity and inclusion at its core and that enables us to have a much and clear view of issues such as intersectionality and the impact they have on access to services on decision-making on how we work in partnership with other organisations in terms of how we undertake equality analysis assessments as well in terms of how we engage undertake public engagement
approach could be taken to address the public Sector Equality Duty cheer you'd be aware the up in having discussions with yourself and Councillor Rathbone looking again at the Single Equality Framework which is one of those areas which is one of the areas where no objectives have been identified that will impact upon the way in which the Council approaches and tackles inequality at discussion we have revised or are in the process of revising the equality objectives but there's more here than simply the Kachingle Equality Framework this
workless done across the council much more much more broadly and I can update the Committee that as part of this piece of work on a set as part of this recommendation the work of the corporate quality board or which is the office aboard that overseas the Council's work on equalities going to be revamped and part of that will include the setting of Equality objectives as part of the business of of directions in a much more sort of embedded in that way
recommendation 4 and diversity forums
and again my colleague the Director of Law a governance and hate Cha is overseeing a piece of work looking at how the Council can better support and assist a staff led fora ensuring that staff who want to participate in started for are given the opportunity to do it but also cheer as you and I discussed recently ensuring that the weighing which the council support star for is is mutually supportive and ensures that staff can clearly see not just how they are being supported and empowered to to undertake a work relating to staff led issues the impact upon equality but can clearly see how that contribute to Council policy going forward
a recommendation 5 Chair of the Council should adopt an open data approach an Equalities absolutely right this is this is fundamental it's important in terms of building trust and particularly that transaction of trust in ensuring that residence and service users of feel much more confident about sharing their information by information is critical to informing are equality analysis assessments policy development strategy development service design am and that transaction of trust can be it's much more likely to be developed if residents and stakeholders can clearly see how information that they share with the council is is is used and how it's how informed decision making so that's just a whistle stop her cheer covering the response to the recommendations and I'm happy to take any questions
brilliant thank thank you pull you very very much
they really do appreciate all the hard work of the Committee that you put into this report and as a committee we do value the fact of all the recommendations are being followed up and some of that works already been done so thank you again so this is the opportunity for Members to ask Paul any questions or make any comments about the presentation and just also know that we have got Councillor Jonathan Slater he's the cabinet member for cleaning the sector is also with us this evening let me just check on my club site what Councillor Rathbone and and Councillor money so just taking those orders please
adult Health thank you very much Paul arm it's wonderful what progressing on myself along a cattle
with a proud of the recommendations we made from this review we spent a lot of time working with the Committee and also with Katie Scrutiny Manager on it
at its policy without was very comprehensive and were format of works it's very good to see it being taken forward I was wondering if you could give it any time lines in regards to five recommendations in terms of when he think will be starting to see them coming into effect
or is it too early to say that at this point I I I'm you but you must give me that a backdoor and am I'm gonna take it that there's a lot happening but this not happening at the moment Councillor Rathbone particularly in light of covert for advice what I can say and I think I can say this with confidence having met with yourself are met with a cheer recently and the ongoing engagement that that that that we've had is that you can I think you can genuinely see that there is a commitment to move things forward but what I what I don't want to do it over promise and under deliver but but what I can assure you of is that I will keep the engagement going so as part of the discussions that yourself in Councillor Campbell have had with me I'm I'm more than happy to report back to you as part of those engagements in between committee meetings to provide you the assurance that you need that progress is being made on these it
but I can also tell you that the the vehicle to take these issues forward his A is a work is a pram of work so there will be a a proper programme of work underpinning this I can tell you that because I'm I'm I have oversight in responsibility for for that and again as part of the ongoing engagement I'm having do I'll I'll report back to you and that you know how things are progressing and you can hold me to account on this sense all that sanitary getting obviously as a standard report back in six months time he I think he'll be very useful for myself and the Chair to meet with you more frequently than that you discuss progress and further steer work as well towards particular directions thank which Committee recommended
thank you thank you Councillor Mulherin than Councillor shape
Lincolnshire couple of is poor and I give the centre to happen on this having supported the Committee in arriving at the original report we probably helped to Mayor and Cabinet with the response but I that's that's to the good I think cannot just a couple of a cup of the first of
following up from Councillor Rathbone's question on on timing I'd particularly and we welcome that at the time the work that was the we get the particularly the Chair and Vice Chair in highlighting the need for a quality of
to recognise the recognition of Indigenous echo economic social disadvantage as being one specific characteristic I note that you you're working towards establishing a fairer Lewisham duty so in in this sort of supplementing Councillor Rathbone's about timing I just wanted particularly with that about how quickly we were likely to see it start featuring report because I appreciate that ticket glut lawyers get hold of it I dare Sarah lawyer in the room
it may take longer than it should
and my second question is remembering and I hope there is some public looking in
the the some of this is is it the two qualities and therefore should be directed and easy to understand but there is a fair amount of of jargon in it though they the phrase I had particularly political difficulty than I know you define it but I think if you could say something about intersectionality which I think is probably new to a lot of people even if we if we thought about it we'd all know what it meant yes
at that thank you thank you customary so in respect of your first answer I would describe it in two parts I with I and in providing this response I'm trying to assure the Committee what I don't want the committee to wait for is a fair Lewisham duty to be presented to you as a fait accompli the there are aspects of the fair Lewisham duty that the Committee has are recommended that can be done now so so there is absolutely no reason why in the preparation of reports and in the identification of equalities implications officers cannot be describing what they believed to be the social economic implications of proposals that are being put forward or recommendation for the contained in reports and that and that part of the fair Lewisham duty it's about recognise recognising the sort of wider socio-economic implications of decision making so so I mean there are two parts to it that that first part should happen immediately it doesn't need to wait the second part actually constructing this framework may take a little bit longer because as as as I mentioned earlier as we're looking at what Scotland did and what could be replicated here in Lewisham there are aspects of the the the fairer Scotland duty that a financial I think he was back by something like 29 million pounds locally and and 12 million pounds in EU funding so that there are there are aspects of it that might be challenging for us but that the spirit of it the principle of it the the ideas and the ambitions of you're absolutely they can be adopted and we will certainly work towards those as quickly as we possibly can
in terms of the overall in terms of the in terms of intersectionality instigated a very fundamental level it's it's an I think the Committee has used this phrase and I think that's I think it's a very good phrase is basically overlapping inequalities so you might have an individual who a woman who is also disabled and who it's an older person as well so in terms of the way in which we will assess the potential implications of a decision we have to consider the whole of that person's experience the Fatah old person the fact that they may experience particular disadvantage an equal
Oman and also the also their disability and that should inform our decision
reflect that and we should understand that we shouldn't simply be dealing with people as sort of mono protected characteristics we should be looking at the entirety of a person's experience and any inequalities and disadvantage that they may or that they may experience as a result of that
I hope Councillor Mannering it was much better than pupil
setted roadway between passing anyway
it was just a really small comment just to say at really welcome
Grant Thornton on this work and understand mechanise Councillor Campbell accounts reference work bringing faster review the work that went into that and the recommendations are now yourself will not officers and actioning it I think really exciting and I know that we spoke about this last meeting in terms of things fishing and I'll make
characteristic that occur of the qualities and has seen for long for missing the value that we took from from Gartler that because Glass specifically by my own misremember the city and most particularly was exciting and grateful to Cattermole against not ready to expand on it the idea of intersectionality kind of like also being embedded in the finding of how we think about equalities I think it's certainly something that is ever relevant and ever important and I think even said in the recovery phase of the pandemic will I think that'll be particularly helpful in kind of understanding and the impacts on different communities so we welcome this work and congratulations and well done to all those who've
made it happen
the monkey thanks very much Councillor Sri
so thank you again Paul and I can just confirm that that report is noted and that the Committee will have an update on the progress or its purpose in around six months' time
so thank you for your welcome of course to stay for the remainder of the meeting and

4 Update from Lewisham Police

we've been on to item 4 this is an from the Lewisham police and this is a standing item on our Committees work plan I invite Chief Inspector the our won't I'll invite Chief Superintendent Robert King borough commander to present to the Committee
and you are trying to revive stock African say me on the video
can you every chair yes yes I can see and I can hear you welcome welcome very welcome and thank you for taking the time to take the committee I know that this is particularly busy and challenging time for his always I just wanted to publicly say thank you and for joining us this evening over to you know will firstly thank you 5 in May I took over running the the be CEO and as you know that consists of Lewisham Greenwich and Bexley back in June
really quite honestly as I started my career in Sydenham so of for 27 orgies ago and a south-east London boy Fred so we've got love connections to the Borough so really pleased to come back care and and run the Policing you'll see I circulated a presentation of Yule got that to hand I'm so what what's so today was to go through some some crime statistics review I've got my colleagues Superintendent and rickets on on the line as well who's going to talk about particularly around the Mayor's action plan around Stop and search and accountability on the work with the in locally on Stop and search and use of force
and some of the work we've been doing around covert if that if that's helpful coal set spinner interest in time to take over with covert and come in through placing him in imports of pandemic and that's been put in a lot of extra pressure on both us and our partners as you know in terms of policing that in a in a in a fair and equitable way you'll see in the in the presentation of started off with her an overview of a London pace around the commissioner's drive around reducing violence which has been the number one priority and for the Commission and for us indeed locally and you'll see just as a London context Holmside offences of risen has been 112th and sadly since January 20 20
56 per cent of those which is 63 committed with I annoy for bladed instrument and 18 offences of been domestic related or domestic abuse
we've recorded as a as a police service
10 knife crime offences which is really please say a decrease of 19 percent 2 thousand 900 1 offences compared to the same period last year and knife crime of injury as also declined by 20 percent
by 797 offences
and accounts for 20 26 percent 3 thousand 194 of all recorded knife crime offences
On the volume of North injury victory on the night
you could turn out quite a lot in a way it's good enough for me anyway and quite a lot I'm not sure if the boil internet with the kitchens I might turn the video off because that often affects his OK
yeah yeah because we've got the presentation fabulous name so sorry yeah I was saying so the volume of knife crime injury victims under 25 s has also reduced by 27 percent which is fond and 57 less offences across London and we seen also decline of personal robbery which throughout London has been 26 percent less and we've seen that really reflected on the BCU
as well
of course with the covert effect has been quite interested go food of figures you'll see the effect of covert and the lockdown but both before and as we've come out of lockdown on on on offences I just wanted to remind the Committee the MPs priorities our operational priorities around focusing on what matters to London and met his most Londoners' we want to mobilise partners and the public in recognition that we can't do this on our own and the work with partnerships in a particularly locally and the public is really key in all we do and really achieve the best outcomes in pursuit of justice and really want to support victims and really be victim focused
in terms of crime total notifiable offences I'll concentrate and just on on Lewisham
and you'll see in the PAC's or free graphs and so we seen a compared with a role in 12 months I compared with now before point 3 per cent less and a sanction detection Rye the domestic crimes we sold in terms of Barbara Tait to 11 percent for Lewisham and you'll see on the graph at the top really the fact that the lockdown had
going into
incident ingredients assault March and as we come out of lockdown slightly going up until levelling up off over the last couple of months terms of burglary offences are we seen a 14 point 4 percent reduction compared with last year in the borough of Lewisham are but that set out the texture writers at 4 percent
I'm and you'll see on the graph said where we compare with the other boroughs in London and you'll see again the sort of covert effect going through March and as we've come out through the summer as sort of an a gradual sort of increase are with particular hotspots in the in the Brockley area and again we've been done an awful lot of work locally around bring offenders to justice in terms of agree and just today we've had a prolific burglar finally arrested on who is very prolific in Lewisham
and we think he's responsible for at least 10 offences that we know of so that's really good news or for today
I tend to from robbery offences we seen a 20 percent reduction compared with the rolling year
and a detection rate of 8 percent we said on the graph on the right day or say again the saw COVID effect I'm coming out of March the huge shared reductions on and a slight increases with come out of June AGM and again on so reducing as we've gone in to until September October and again there was some prolific offences in the Ladywell area where we did significant our work to captured out Fender and that's knifepoint robberies mainly picking on arms flung females and going to and from work in terms of knife crime offences are was seen a 15 point 2 percent reduction year on year compared and again you'll see on the right then the sort of our graph that saw shows how that's played out over the year
with particular reductions again sought to in the covert period and as we come out of lockdown a gradual increase are with the real and sharp decreases in September and October
and again with we and the partnership had put an awful lot of work into violence and reducing knife crime offences on the on the PCO are for a variety of tax it in include welcome young people and partof patrolling and targeting those people that we know Herbert knives
the next year wants to talk about was around their sexual offences are again you'll see on this graph we've seen A and 8 point 1 percent increase in sexual offences compared with the rolling 12 months before on and again on the graph day will see
really the covert effects again and as we've come out in my of gradual increase up to what we'd call the upper warning so it had some quiets of worrying level 7 a cool sexual offences cover a range of offences are not only you know the real high-end fences of ripe for no other was other other fences are categorised in that basket
as I saw mentioned moving on around sanction detections as I say we're bad we're 11 per cent for sanction detections which is above our aspiration for the Met and we're doing well compared without other boroughs and one of the things we have now to sell out of an it's nor in the pack that domestic views on we've certainly seen about 30 percent increase across to the CEO around domestic abuse because either with violence or without violence and that's replicated across London in fact
and clearly that's quite worrying it can of course be linked to people been posed up together
and that's something over the last a week or next week we've got a specific operation across London targeting on domestic abuse particularly those offenders and the around a standard and our policy around that is really to arrest people at the scene or within 24 hours and to support the victims to come forward to a a conviction we hope
and again we've hate crime what we have seen across the PCO is again a increase in hate crime and when we've looked at research a lot of that has been between neighbours again we we put that down to locked down and people and been into a home more and effort to live probably for longer hours with their neighbours
what I wanted to do now is to come on to the there's action plan I won't go hand over to and rickets who's been doing some work for me and with me on by the Mayor's action plan are stopping serve plan harm a new cyfle split so hand and 20 if that's OK cha the welcome and you could even sure everyone else on the Col yeah just wanting to go through the mai of London's action Plan Officer really significant piece of work as the actual slides that you going front you those EIA she presented to our inspectors so it's just the reinforced to them the importance of the action plan what the challenge was an and how we intend to undertake a lead on it simulations the first slide this is a cross city hall initiative launched by the Mayor in November 20 20 in the the objective around the action plan is to have a police service that is confidence able black communities and it's very specific about that in terms of what it aims to deliver and one of the things are not kind of pulled out of that was one of the comments within the document and it's about promoting equality and reducing unjustified disproportionality and I know that some of this is something that Lucian's very very I'm aware of arm and their focus around this disproportionality pace and that any NAC interesting use of the word unjustified and that's will see something as partners and police Winnie's can really understand when we start looking
at the challenges around it and some of the statistics around it that kind of opens up you know the areas that we can a need to look at so the action plan focuses on kind of our four key areas ones around police powers it talks about stop and search powers the use of Burn Road traffic Act Section 1 6 3 and what this is about as my understanding how we use our powers the context to use those powers and the kind of counts ability unscrewed and and this scrutiny scrutiny around those areas as can block a carer the other areas about working together how the Metropolitan police and partners and communities work together around these areas there's ran representations has VAT in terms of the workforce in terms of we don't reflect the communities of London as well as we should do
the Commissioner has already said the insert the residential residency requirement will become an instrument terms of future accrue I'm so there will be a requirement for new officers to have lived in London and the other areas around accountability and that scrutiny error in terms of how we monitor our offices and how we hold them to account and in terms of their stop and search work the kind of key areas that have been focused and on his back showing the officers have confidence in using the power of stop and search which is recognised by by the community and the place is something that is incredibly you saw an incredibly powerful as a power but also that they communities have trust in the way that it's used and you have to have a combination as two factors will see Mike at work
now the action plan is currently being borne out of the momentum that come from the killing of George Floyd in the US and the black communities I'm Hough holding the commonplace to account in many respects and review in the way that we engage with communities in the way that we use our powers in this country can go back to the Macpherson report in 19 99 and from that report in 19 99 I mean these issues have been raised previously nothing the thing that with the action plan the areas that it covers aren't you areas but what would it does have are really Kanye challenging goals that are really ambitious and rightly so
and the mayor does state that within the document that you know these are challenging and ambitious targets but you know the intention is that we will deliver on them
so the MOPAC reviews that will review the progress on the action plan the first one will be February 21 that we further 1 in July 21 and then another one in December 21 21 the my expectation would be that obviously this will be a real focus now leading up to the Mayor election in May 20 1 in terms of how that's delivered I then go on to look at the challenges of kind of put five bullet points as some Ocaña key areas these are within the report it's not something of pulled out so the first ones our 59 percent of black victims of crime being satisfied with the service of the Metropolitan police compared to 60 percent of white victims across as a significant gap there in terms of the service delivery that's an area that the Met will have to review and understand in terms of what why that's occurring black individuals of free point seven times more likely to be stopped again there is disproportionality there so his for the Met to show that that is an unjustified and there is a reason for that disproportionality or it needs to be addressed in terms of what was going wrong with that such another area significant area and then you know the startling kind of facts that 40 percent of charge homicide fenders were teenagers and of those 75 percent were black again you know these referees where you know the importance of working in partnership and with the communities and partners in Lewisham and other people in the criminal justice sector is going to be lot really important Black London as 1 point 8 times more likely to be victims of knife crime
and again another you know it's a shocking fact and one that we are all very much aware of and this action plan will obviously create that kind of focus on on these areas and obviously it's got the oversight of HMO pack and links in with the local forces which is important and then you've got the representation of the Met police only 15 point 4 percent of our officers are black Asian or minority ethnic now they have been increases but we know near the 41 percent of London's population so again this huge amount of work that will need to go into that
so in terms of what we're doing in terms of the base you Sir following from the Gulf group which had run far off videos ran Stop and search right I promise on that meeting with a root and branch review and we've done that so we've now got a new pledge in relation to stop and search in a strategy we've got an improvement plan of over 60 actions that is overseen by a new governance structure a Stop and search and use of force bald and which is chaired by Chief Superintendent akin also has an independent community Koecher which is on the scene portent and Lincoln into that we have got the lead councillors will be invited to that meeting will form part of that meeting and also the S M base there's a lot community links and one of the things are be looking to do is to how we can expand that get community more involved I refer a Q and A session or something where they close links and that'll be discussed at the next board meeting and I'm also linked in now of up with a number of base use a task open stopped and search and that's looking around the engagement pace and the improvement plans across the CEOs and and scrutiny and we report to Commander Jane Connors while deceased Stop and search were we've also done a review of engagement across the BCS that's looking at how they Bacio engages with communities and the networks that we have an wherever teachers and where potential gap sore and my Chief Inspector Mick chatting will be laid on that leading on that work and chairing a bold
to have a say that but what we're doing is working with the local authorities to map Hakimi in it says and understand that together this isn't something that will be done in isolation in terms of the recruitment pace I worked with the central H are am what I do is utilise my my teams working within schools working within the local authorities in terms of how we drive the recruitment area so challenge Roco V it because that's restricted the number of face-to-face meetings for what we're doing his were logging all our contacts overflew religious groups and schools and to try and obviously focus our recruitment around down Black Asian and minority ethnic communities and in line with the action plan I'm so roughly mentioned so the KoFID situation I have twice weekly meeting with the free local forestry solution role Greenwich and Bexley where we discuss how we do every Foxman to ensure that we've got joined up them Taskin and operational plans around because what we've agreed is really important he says consistency across the three local authorities and at the local authorities understand that how we do in our enforcement and how we're applying at what we call in the met the for raise which is basically
engaging explaining and then you get to a corner from afar point of potentially enforcement so you know that these reasons are carrying on and what we're doing within those meetings is also touching upon the areas of from Stop and search engagement and recruitment place I'm so that's that's my updating relations that Chair enough in the next slides around the public attitude survey
Chaffetz Calcutt Bhacaidh thank you Andrew you'll see in the Packers well sides at going to the detail of the Stop and search improvement plan so hopefully they are self explanatory and I'll let you read those I think the public attitude survey as you know it's a survey done across London and you'll see on the slide there something the is is concerning to me in the first one is the MPC's an organisation can trust in Lewisham is the lowest there at 75 percent are likewise the police are should conduct Stop and search 65 percent came under the lower ones and please she says stop and search powers fairly again at 62 percent
I am now today that the plan that we've spoke about really one of the key outcomes as got to be to raise on those numbers up are because you know actually that really matters I think all of us really the public had should surveil never side talks about again you'll see on their agreed the place can be relied upon to be there when when when needed are again a low number for Lewisham of 59 percent HROD agreed replace tree one fairly regardless of food I'll against 60 percent for Lewisham again one of the lower ones agree the place dealing with the things that matter to the community 57 percent again on the lower ones are greater places into the concerns of local people again lower at 61 percent R and
people feel well informed about local police activities again lower 30 percent until spare How to contact your local team again 14 percent place do a good job in in the area which at once quite as a bit higher at 59 percent
so all in all day when you compare it with the other parts of the DCO Lewisham is a is at the lower end and the work with doing around I've Stop and search USA false and indeed our engagement plans as as Andrew was talking about I think I would expect to see a real difference in these numbers we go for tickly around how responding to victims how our reach into the community were actually in against those parts of the community that we don't normally engage with on a thing is a partnership as really important and so I think that concludes what I had to say on the
presentation ceremony Delhi other slides I think might be useful for you Liz sides on those insights on and stop and search and son and stats are around Stop and search are and you will see on their
the first side on the Stop and search it's about and the volumes for the 12 months are and it breaks down by age and ethnic appearance
and then purely on ethnic appearance again on the on the command in Lewisham and you got stuck in search by reason and you'll see on their most about Stop and search and is for drugs and again you will see are on the right hand side the proportion of Stop and search compared with other boroughs there was MBC you as the BCU we are
for the last few months we've been won a lower areas for Stop and search are in London are but with the highest outcome right in terms of arrests and a positive outcomes which it knows important because it shows the across the BCU not doing are loads of Stop and search with very targeted and we've had some you know really good outcomes around that
and you'll see any thank you
I'm just because you go through the slice and most of the Members and actually read through and I can see that people it Kinney wanting to ask questions can I can I stop you there
take some of the questions I really appreciate and thank you so much for this report and the presentation is very thorough and you know all the members of the Committee had refereed hopefully everyone's read through it and if we can start now we can ask some questions I'm really sorry to stop you in mid flow and I'm just very mindful of the top buying is that OK and the answers I since he had I've got quite a few but I saw Councillor Mallory has the question Councillor rap and can we not think we take those two first and let's see how we get odd and I can see Councillor Hanley's hand-up
so take those three
so you can't stenographers please thank you Chair inverted be specifically on the attitude Survey and the relatively poor performance allusion appreciate you only been in the job for a relatively short time but I wondered whether you had any sense because despite you know the partnership working and the getting into the community and so on I wondered whether you had any kind of at least impressionistic sense of what what was what had gone wrong in the past in order to to to to get the young there may be mitigating circumstances but I just wondered if you had a quick impressionistic view because what are supposed what we're all anxious about not having to wait for another year to find out that having gone into partnership and and so on you're you're no better off thus question and effect cares quite again is caught complex to what makes up people satisfaction with the place and confidence for me it's about being effective in crime and the really victim focused and I can show that we are putting victims at the front end of a widow that's really Pullen of so
today that swivel as low level crime of his I Aspley it's about really give a really good service and follow up is about making sure we'll highlight in all the good work that goes on in the partnership and all the good work that goes on I think it is fair to say it is harder to sell the good work we do as opposed to some of the the the the
if you like the the bad side of policing that gets reported on and we want to push that as well I think we engage with it is really important that are interested in about and and make sure we're getting officers out into the community working with the community and for community to see officers in a different way so not just in enforcement bowed the actually working with communities on problems working a young people our schools offices Arby's invested heavily in our schools officers to make sure we got officers in our schools are
I think the key is it will be around our legitimacy to do the role of and yes if disgusted hair use of force and stop and search has been a hot topic particularly over the summer and it's about making sure that our communities in Lewisham really see that we are absolutely trying to make her a big difference here
that Council earlier
to see what the exit interviews Councillor him let us not one and they will go to Councillor Handley on it's kind of a multi-party checks sound 8 22 and 23 we thought King different cross by showing Stop and search data arm with significant figures for same time paid I was just wondering what distinction between those two dataset says
once I cannot have so I'll just check
I think one may be the what might be the base use a home may be by Lewisham at guess but we need to check and come back to you our cat arm and we've also got on a couple of slides latest off and search by outcomes which has obviously lifts positive outcomes by burrowed so we can see how many positive outcomes were in Lewisham but we don't have any more and we also got but the nature of most of outcomes but we don't have a demographic data break down on that basis something which we committees thing concerned about in the past but data we've seen elsewhere and we conducted a review relating to stop and search showed that the positive outcome Thorpe percentage of Stop and searches producing positive outcomes was much higher for white individuals black individuals despite the fact that there were a considerably higher number of searches for black individuals is that something which you have available but demographics of for Lewisham of Wetherby positive outcomes are coming from I age by ethnicity for example or is that not available
I'll have to check a sort of I bought a bit place which we don't have an analyst at the and PlayStation that we can use has been for a century
on the website that is open to the public to pull data from Andrew do not you know if we've got no data
none of the shirt because of the city what the public data that's available medicine or the city issue girl sadly could take an action Councillor we'll we'll have a look at that and will get back to this week that would be greatly appreciated any arm the based upon what was seen historically the seem to be very strong reason to believe that the were unjustifiable searches happening at disproportionate rate for BAME individuals simply because they were not producing a level of positive outcomes would expect to see compared to white individuals so that date I think be actually be keen for as the Committee I Council property
thank you Councillor Blackburn because that was the issue was going to raise to that we didn't have the demographic may break down and historically it's exactly the ward Councillor for the said Is there a high number of Stop and searches for typically young black men with lower per cent teachers of positive results but lower numbers of white men start with very high result so that would be really useful because that really is when we are looking at the Stop and search the work that you're doing in the we shall in particular that's the sort of thing that will enable us well it will enable you will also surround build interesting to talk about building trust with the community and when people do see that sort of data it is very difficult it's taken a long time for the trust to be broken with communities and so it's perhaps going to take a long time for the Bill to the game was important is that it is at the top of your agenda it is implicit is something that you want to do and it is something that you have utterly so that I'm really pleased about that I have a ton of questions I'm going to leave them and for now I can see that Councillor nice Councillor Handley I saw you put their hand up then I see Councillor Brown and then I sawed James Lee I think but there was putting queues in their little in the little boxes I know it was a question then Councillor Handley then Councillor Brown
thank you Chair and my questions are about the the process of them yet the actual employment of officers from London or the the tried to get officers for London should be play in the place was in London and I was wondering there's a sure programme this over news item that also victim obeying victim of stop and search and he was giving lessons to officers that live at sides under the current offices at we were got and I wondered how that's impact in the area more that you look after ORS at just a London-wide
and he awoke issue it was was how many current place of a suite got liver so I wondered would you know what that figure be available locally for era you cover or the whole of London thank you Chair I catch outside his quiet but there is customer hawks as head of recruitment for the Met for I turn off years before coming here so I'm really passionate about actually move in El figures around our diverse throats when we had the the residency criteria before our diversity factored was much higher and that's because we were full in from a very diverse area in London
we had the uplift as you know in terms of policing in terms of nationally on and in order to get the volume we needed tend to go wider than just London we won't get enough applications from the London area
that said this about 12 thousand people in the pipeline at the moment going through recruitment to join the Met of so not all those who join it's quite competitive and there's been an awful lot of work to ensure that particularly women and members of the black community are really Fien
and if you like targeted in order to with all of our recruitment activity and goes relativity to show that law enforcement is a great career and actually that they can make a real difference in in London
the bit for me is of course when you talk about people living in London and other I would have the to to hand what we do find is of course people either will live in London baby with their folks of course there is some about for mobility so a lot of people would eMoov outside of London and can you into into the met and that's a I should imagine economics in terms of where people could afford to live and a course you know our offer the bet these days yet without have section houses within have accommodation for officers anymore so that means officers I've I've got trying to find the rent or live in assisted properties with housing associations etc. The the point you made about and people come in and training our offices impart our Stop and search a pint off in as incredibly important there is something about when officers join the big CEO that they're given the context and history of where policing
and that covers off going right back to historical events it out how the communities feel about the police in a particular area and by having local people come in and talk to officers and particularly with the Stop and search plan would stop and search training having people that come in that maybe not have no adequate experience with policing
in terms of that area to talk about how they fell it's incredibly impact if I mean I think the challenge for us it's a good challenge to have is the about 40 to 50 percent of our staff are Brando in place so that within the first two years are so that they now call the is incredibly challenging challenging to get those officers trained and competent and are ready it's good that we've got young Kane officers are really keen to learn
the groups I've met since of income that have come to the BCU incredibly diverse credibly diverse which is which I think is fruits of the work we were doing recruitment previously and again you know any anyone on and on the Committee wants to come and see our training what's or get involved
and also incredibly powerful from to hear from you as a Councillor walk Boyt's like for your job in the in the in the in about how youth who feel that Lewisham I think we can be powerful for our officers
certainly I was needed they can be coming from Councillor Brown and then question from Councillor shake and then we'll end I think with
James Lee wanted to make a comment I've being and then we are going to have to move on to the next item on the agenda
thank you is it my colleague Julia thank you and the good evening to you and colleagues first it more suggestion I just think it's a very interesting report the slides that we've got no one that the Committee would like to forward on directly to all Councillors in a standalone e-mail for information because I think a lot of college would find it
includes a lot of interesting information so that just a suggestion thanks Chair thank you thank you and I'm sure Katie our fabulous scrutiny manager who are able to do that for as I'm Councillor shake
thank you Chair and thank you for this presentation offer that presentation I also found it a full so and ever accessible greed and what it really just to her question only Councillor phoning hasn't Campbell's
to request an comments around and having a more people data when it comes to the southern search and the impacts and particularly young black men enter also echoed the comments about the surface of the current he's been following for years now and I think it still adequately to his letters for instance to a conversation where AB repeat of the southern for improvement plan and the Committee like to keep my on given what the data shows given what some of the incidents is particularly shall have have been like recently my specific question is just on the improvement plan
with the Committee Officer more information on the the Gleeson schools programme because I grew it has a Campbell about the kind of building up the trust in particularly in communities as isn't gonna be a long time process and I certainly think creating spaces that feel sort of safe and enable that trust to be built and I think schools as a good place to do that suggested over the I guess the breakdown between primary school secondary school strategy what they sessions look like and what the frequenting consistency of them would be and a way of what what the evaluation process around those as attorney to monitor the impact of them thank you
the question I would probably not many of us on the Col we're not when I was at school had police officers coming in has probably made me think about joining the police could access it was an incident back in the day
I think it's incredibly important officers are seen in a nun enforcement role and young people get to speak to police officers and see the person buying the uniform and the badger few likeliness incredibly powerful and realise we are the community there are in out of take up this great profession to do policing I think he even either things have officers getting involved in school and working young people in a different ways incredibly powerful that a school's officers when Andrew better give an overview of the school the school's team that the idea is mainly focusing on secondary schools but recognising that primary schools we've got to get in really really young really with children so they get to trust and no officers from an early age that's really important escorts he there's lots of primary schools on the Borough and we could have put an officer in everyone but we will make sure everyone gets an input and with the support of the partnership and getting into the head teachers been out to do some lessons about you know really important that young people know their rights they know what to expect from police officers they know the standards we expect from officers when they stopped engaging people that's really important and that to me is really case they know how to if they come across something that's not right and reporting of the confidence but also what I want is young people to look at law enforcement and think it I that converge for me an intense time for them to join that we have a great police Cadet Programme on on this Borough and now as as I touched on early offers of how I'm a product of it from
over 30 years ago from a feeble up on an estate in south-east London and having no one in the police and are having that great opportunity to sort of joined the cadets and big directed into doing lots of good things in a community and ultimately joining the police and we've got a really good diverse group of young people it's it it had a diversity is absolutely fantastic I think it's over 50 percent
young black children
down people involved in Air Cadets
so that together with the work we're doing in Scholes the opportunities that the partners have an awful lot of local councillors have given us opportunities to get involved on their wards are with with projects and we would welcome that so how that gives you a bit of an overview of where we want to go with with the young people pace
you thank you endings legality handle in this will be the final comment and we'll move on to the next item on the agenda you just to quit reassurance to the Committee from each year that we are we've had some initial initial analysis done of the Stop and search data because we're aware that Committee very interested in unfortunately we recently lost out analyst as well but we will be bringing an update that in response to the Committee's report that was due to and come tonight but we'll come I think to the next Committee and just to reassure Members that obviously Gary and myself and and Gary successor as you'd noted will continue to work with Robin under very closely on this agenda an or able to feed back and not the onus of every meeting of required another life basis
the being promptly thanks very much James the and thank you very much chief separated and Akeim and Andrew rickets also for attending very much appreciated and we all come forward to hearing
I'm sorry Councillor Carter started out very quickly for you close and the point of that was raised on Geisler try to roll back and I don't know whose feet
I've had a lot of sorry

5 Budget Cuts Report

whilst I was part of the Stop and search work we're we're looking to commission Greenwich University to look at the statistics and the numbers and into the whole piece it goes into because I think is really complex it's not just a straightforward as you know the figures may suggest in those disproportionality as we know in employment in opportunities the street population even potentially disproportionality when people call the police and you know how to describe suspects or in other had I put a call in so I think that'll be a really great piece of research or focus our minds so that's what I had sight the thank you Chair the the in thank you thank you very much thank you both for and Curley very much appreciated and we're going to swiftly move on to item 5 on the agenda which is the budget cuts report members are asked to note the report and also to look at it in terms of the recovery plan and also the Council's response to to cope with it I invite Tom Brown deficit Executive Director for community services to introduce the report thank you Tom
thank you Chair and like to found David Austin and his colleagues David's on on the call it is any specific needed technical questions around the the finances air that there are beyond my little brain at but if I could it's please again remind Los actually that David Austin and poor Anneka are also in attendance you can ask questions they thank you for that time and I think we need oppositon present this budget and these cuts in the that the context of where we are in this year the financial impact of covert that affecting our Council but indeed councils across the country
and locally we have 30 million pounds of costs and her further 38 million pounds of lost income it's clearly going to be carried over to next year and the government has not delivered on the support that has been promised to date and we are now in the midst of the second wave with the
the possibilities after Christmas in inner even a third wave
the Council in this year is continuing to report overspending pressures air we've got around 10 million pounds of precious of overspends mainly in children's social care environments services and technology as well
against that we've been able to make some savings about 5 point 4 5 point 5 million already in year we've got further spending controls in place but it's it is an uphill struggle and the further impact of funding a Local government hasn't been confirmed clearly we've had the comprehensive spending Review but we will get our provisional local government settlements until towards an Christmas
so the the outlook for this year that the Medium Term financial Strategy has identify that we need to make savings of at least 40 million over the next three years with with that very much front loaded of 24 million for next year and as along side that
we've got this persistent overspend of 10 million pounds that we need to put them on top of that 24 million for next year so that's effectively 34 million pounds of savings and cuts that we're looking for
officers have adopted a slightly different approach to other years in terms of works to identified cuts with with very collaboratively across the whole Council with the Executive under theme seem Tingley Shipley and the Extended leadership Team selects down to the that the service managers and we've been working at that through July October am and clearly we've also had some open sessions with members in September October we've done this around themes of productivity looking at and changing our ways of working being able to work differently with our partners to get them both more benefit for the public pound and think about our joint working arrangements a strong relationships we've got own deterred Rob and Andrey from the police there that joint working with with them with our health partners with a housing association with Lewisham homes
thinking as well about how we reconfigure our services to meet the challenges that are ahead the way that we engage with customers how we could use our front door how we can and support a more flexible approach and Channel shift for some people to use digital air access rather than using people all the time
we've also had a work stream looking at our asset rationalisation looking at our capital programme and the non-strategic council buildings and looking to make sure we get and a good return on the assets that we have got
we've been
challenge to have a more commercial approach and something is going to require a shift in mindset as we innovate and develop new ways to generate income make the best of our resources are financial resource the proposal the Human Resources the staff resources that we've got
and finally a theme around demand management looking at the statutory services using pardoning using our discretion to find the best way to deliver services to reflect the needs of our residents and hopefully by providing timely an upstream intervention whether bats with waste management children's social care adult social care that we can actually reduce the level of demand demands coming to us and we can't ignore
so the draft officer proposals at this point are totalling around and 26 point 9 million pounds of which 50 million an offer next year and that fifth say 15 million fixture at this is against a target for next year of 34 as I said that that the 24 of cuts plus the 10 million overspend add to that leaves a gap of around 18 put known million pounds for for next year
the detail of the air will go through the detail of the Navigation sheep shortly that an appendix appendix 1 and and then you see the real more detailed performance that have some of the specific information on the schemes and the proposals for cuts that are being put forward and some of the implications that that are there
and so I suppose what we would ask each scrutiny committee is to review and comment on the cuts and to make referrals to public accounts witches and Thursday evening and to be consolidated by them then referred on to Mayor and Cabinet next week as appropriate and I think we need to say as a general comment that this has been a very difficult year for everybody involved in continues to be so
especially the need to respond to Covid on top of this decade of austerity that we've been working through we read your cutting services at the same time as trying to deliver an emergency response and officers are hatted credit Stop across the whole Council officers have been working above and beyond for the last six months in many many cases working long hours working weekends and taking on more responsibilities and even delivering services that this time last year we never thought would be an applicable like your Staffield in supporting shielding Staffield being delivering our local tested trace initiative so on top of the Budget challenge and the Curva challenge across was no good to the anxiety and Brexit as well so we're coming into a very volatile period and we need to deliver these savings in that context
the Chair I don't have that particular questions there or would you like me to go through the proposals here on the Navigation sheet or take back feel of questions coming up
and what I would do and Tom is ongoing to assume that this of fabulous committee that they had read the report said that need to go into any more detail and I'm I will just take the questions and there are potentially from reading the vehicle 7 cuts that pertain specifically to physically to the areas covered by this Committee say if we could have the questions around those lights and first please and then perhaps we can look at any other generic questions I'm going to begin I'm going to ask the Vice Chair to begin with the questions and then I see Councillor Hanley with his Anna's of hand of hands thank you cards that bird facts Chair so my questions don't so much relate to specific individual cuts on top as the general approach taken towards cats
you you're going over it the vast majority for cuts have had at least preliminary work done when it comes to service Equalities impact assessments and Human Resources impact assessments my main concern here though is that the approach seems to have been to consider these on an individual basis or each caught rather than looking at looking at of effect so as of Rieti proposals
where because of the type of service the Council deliver and be count all arm service user we have where
the costs are likely to be essentially impacting the same use group of individuals on multiple occasions so if you look at the various cuts which are relating to adult social care are all relating to children's social care it's quite likely that these cuts will be hitting the same of individuals and then if you build another cut surrounding like short breaks for example discretionary transport and of a whole variety of things it seems to me the same services group it similar as well within resource impact on there's lots of cats bear all of which we have had staff arm my question really is whether or not the work has been started to be done now on looking at the SE I and hate our I assessments or Kings of basis all over it still does looking them on an individual basis
thanks Councillor burned and Shell said yes I think Carter after I think and pole and may wish to to add some comments on this but I think we would say we are starting to do that and I think the main focus of the work has actually been at this stage trying to pull together
figure that somewhere close to 34 million pounds of cuts that we and the them we've had to do the troll and then I think we starting to look at the analysis now in more depth yes we do we absolutely do recognise that some of the people will be
impacted multiple times by some of these cuts and invariably they will probably be the most vulnerable people and the most marginalised people already so we are aware of that and we too we are trying to make sure that we do that but we need to do it and more fully said that with the moment we've been casting the net so to speak on to try to get a number that would kick the Director of Finance happy
so I'm Const enough when are we taking not to park that was those specific are sobbing I've got several specific recommendations I think I'd like to make but it's probably good to go through the various members of the Committee first and seek get enosis comments hazardous Councillor Hanley
thank you Chair Surrey on using the hashtag club of some reason I can't see the pork question through the other way
monomania comic relief obviously RB the ran quite a long time and is committee as the three of us have been around long term and the council and the words at some used about the council working together within various different departments are all working together new where working no law that Tom from her before and you might get you about it I for the first time but I've certainly unsure my colleagues of her there and when he gets when he gets yeah yeah still protecting sometimes their own silo over department which is understandable in some way so I just want to a fall of us to keep an eye on the really words you're saying about working together to see it through this terrible time with I'm PRU and to find these Sir cats which is not going to be easy for officers don't I do appreciate that but as my comments of
treatment very much with a positive copy
so the Council has the power that I could come back as our yes I will and I am not naive enough to think that some of these things have been said before I think what and I would say is the
rather the work to try to identify the kids didn't start off with targets for each bit of the Council I think it was a a session which brought together all of the directors and looked and worked actually indifferent areas so the demand management bewitch traditionally would it be an adult social care or a a children's social care focus was actually led by my colleague Kevin Sheehan as a person who were able to take a slightly objective view and think in and and indeed push colleagues from across the Council to work together and work differently and I think that that's it hasn't been at that you're silver bullet but it is generated some different ways of thinking for example of how housing can work with Children's Services to avoid some of the cost pressures and industrious that will one example so there have been some some innovation has come from this
whilst I cherish good luck charm and the rest of them
thank you thank you to them and any other committee members like to make a comment America an Asker Kristen I don't see anything in the chart
the were so
Councillor manner he would like to make a comment and then Councillor Rathbone would like to ask a question
by virtue Councillor Martin Bank
thank you Chair I don't know you want what happened it that other scrutiny committees and I don't have weather like lead a shared sense of bemusement not the movement in any critical way I just think the context is almost overwhelming the start by bicycle I actually found a report one of the clearest reports have seen us produce on a budget ever and and and actually quite quite easy to navigate through having and I say that advisedly because of course there are many pitfalls in in the whole thing and and I think the approach has been taken is new despite Councillor Hanley's comment that he heard it all before as she think there's quite a lot different
about the way in which this has been approached and I think of it as it be commended particularly within the context and I can't go without saying it particularly we have a public that the of introduction to the report talks about austerity and and it was noticeable that the chancellor the other day introducing his spending review to parliament said that they were moving away from austerity that no question of going back to austerity well are never a true or false her word was said
because the truth of the matter is that austerity continues for Local government and we have been the hardest hit of all the victims and also continue to pick up all the pieces in having had to do that during Covid has made matters even worse and I so I think that when we come to presenting to the Mayor and Cabinet we are going to want to say that the campaign to get the money back that was promised us asked to go on that that we we know if we just cannot Summerleaze and and that leads to my comment about the proposals them themselves is that while I think they are clearer and they're done in a way which makes more sense than has been done before particularly when you look at the enormity of the task
are deliverable are they I think we all know along that they're there can be very Lee difficult delivered and particularly new think that an awful lot of the proposals we have our geared to the fact that we adapted a massively during the first stages of of the hippy of the epidemic so that we began we were increasingly looking at a remote working of that remote working also depends on changing the technology and the impact that that has on our end users so that many of our users are now being explored will will continue to be increasingly to to be expected to do things online when they don't always have the capacity to do those things on line so that support for them probably isn't built in as a cost or if it is I couldn't find it and I think that's one of the things that's going to have to be picked up on later not just the that the key issue the Council of ASB and raise about you know how much has been looked at in terms of you know the cuts impacting on on in particular groups multi fold but also or are they equipped to deal with of the changing expectations we have of them in using our services so my comments or general I'm going to reserve more specific questions public accounts when we get
perhaps some of the references specifically from Committee and I would note the one thing I would note which I think is relevant to this committee is the as I hope it's at not coming down the line in the second phase of cuts this year but I notice in the first trashy this year are not proposing cuts on the voluntary sector that has something to do with the as suppose the settlement we fixed on and the other year but also Rexon recognition of the fact that they may well be needed in helping to support people through the first phase of cuts but I I say that advisedly that fully expecting that my that may change in the next tranche of proposal so perhaps we could have
so my my only question I suppose is or cold kind of joint christened how realisable are these and what are we expecting to do about the second tranche before we even put the Budget 2 bed this year are always assuming that we get any money back from the government of the outstanding many were expecting cure
then Tom yes that fact nurture that back because of Valerie in terms of the what the Bill to doubt as as your risk of digital exclusion I think you're all our changed ways work ethic we are alert to that but equally I think that we have had we've also realised that the for some people this has been quite liberating the fact that we have been able to do some stuff Digitalism there's up that there is a balance to be struck about that and we make sure that we need to understand the the opportunity that it gives us but we are very alert to the them to the risks that that this can pose to some people and a
we don't want to and we absolutely cannot need to make sure we don't exclude people at that expose what we do have to do though in this world of every juicing budget is nudge those who can use digital opportunities to deterred Adult down that route and as well the end the issue on the Bunkers sector I think that we you write in your you'll suggested it the
that that the cuts for the boundary sector at the end of the at this current period and we've specifically they the both sexual given security over the or over the course of the grunge period but as it was deliberately not just one year on one year of and we have had a fabulous response from yet a lot of the voluntary sector over this this year in response to the pandemic the response to the shielding that has been co-ordinated and but by Lewisham local I am as as been exit but there I think it's been an acceptance that
not all of the voluntary sector responded in the same way as and some Partybot did and as we are having to make some you'll very deep and painful cuts to other places in the Council of we're that we would have to acknowledge that we and we need to take somebody out of the the voluntary sector grants as well all albeit also recognising that we do continue to sort support the boundary sector in in non-financial ways through
many many organisations still have a rent free or peppercorn rent less than letting bed leases
it feels it does feel difficult that we are stopping that that the voluntary sector but and we out we believe that we
will still be able to fund them to a level that they consistently to be sustainable and indeed that the support and to income generate as well
I thank the town and I had a few comments are also really just coming the Councillor Mallory's comment on the extraordinary amount of work that has gone into this paper and you know really do appreciate that and that we cannot ignore the impact of austerity with the added layer of COVID-19 we cannot and the question now I want to ask was around the changes and and to start patters of working and when I looked at the paper
I think the first one I think it's a 0 1 how they carry out their duties aware they carry out their duties that there is some consultation with staff there seems to be an now under the staff consultation so whilst it has benefited a lot of people working remotely or working from home we also need to ensure that it's the best fit for those people in it's not something this given to people rather than requested that if that's something that people want to do so I think is really important we do consult with staff on that particular issue as long as it affects their patterns of work where they were
or how they can I am and I think there was a also a parcel there where we are getting rid of the the fleet of cars and potentially looking at electric cars and bikes and riding bikes those things really important that we have consultation with staff on those and I can see some Acaster question
OK so there's a thing in the chap from Councillor Brown Kearney's think that Tom science that me
he wanted
but that the enough of my budget is built that requested that just as the topic Councillor Rathbone another to discussing that this is a referral I will be bringing to the Committee at the appropriate time late in the evening the cost of those areas that just to give the Head of policy
I can see the customer it's got a question
this latest commenced than Councillor Rathbone's question in them will look at their hat and Councillor Slater
thank you Juliet
it just to follow on from what Tomislav taking rather than a garden boundary sector before I do I just want to pay tribute to Gary Connors as well because I've worked with Gary for a long time when I was first a voluntary action issue use the work her used to wet together a lot and they're not receive care that on and then certainly I've always found Gary to be her next officer responsive professional so a Gary you are going to be a big loss to us but I'm sure you'll make a really bigging pacts in Newham so all the best for the future so doesn't them to what
at Tom set out the voluntary sector I mean again I mean the boundary sector are basically played a blinder this year with the response the care of it I mean it was the week I think of the 16th March I dunno Dave in I mean we meeting councillors to telling the work as ever was in what we're doing what we're doing and literally is before the national lockdown came into effect but because of the main grants programme because of our relationships because of the Work solutions local we managed to set up COVID-19 of response in the master of days which then proceeded what was announced late on relevant terms of there shielding policy so really you know the fact that the sector supported over 10 thousand people through feeding them in over 40 3 thousand calls was just as his phenomenal and of course this proposal was particularly something I've been grappling with as well Oby honest review which but I think as Thomas Said's I think what some of the lessons we've learned from the COVID-19 response I really want to inform how we do how we fund the voluntary sector to be going forward from the next round from 20 22 so for instance we have much better data on where our arcana key needs and vulnerabilities are so those so we now know what geographically where those were shielding but also in terms of ethnic and social economic backgrounds and I think it was interesting in terms of what he was saying about the Single Equality Framework about having a social economic Tess and I think for me we've also got to think about where those kind of needs to the are geographically as well so I see that down and Bellingham you know we had the highest number of people shielding from the for Iris I know for also since advice Lewisham have done so work indeed some work dates about where their service users are live and dominates the south-east of the Borough's I think when we come to really commission or re-let the probe of the migrant programme I want us to really follow the evidence to see where the greatest needs our where our money can go the furthest I think all so we've also managed to fund some really good relationships were foundations and and funders so we've already start saying lots of money coming into Lewisham from the outside which is always something that people were still Pinot the sector does but we never really but I think sometimes it's always the evidence well was seen the evidence now through the money that's coming particularly in responding to the pandemic and that's something I really want to can take forward because again you know this pre-pandemic I saw that a lot of corporate sponsorship would go to one or two boroughs and Lewisham's in in London and borrow there's no reason why you know we have reacted communities there and finally to say that you know we've got really good social capital moving forward you know we had over 2 thousand people signing up to volunteer through through the issue local Surrey wants use them moving forward in terms of building local communities in the areas so yeah it's really tough financially I'm not going to make any bones about it I think what we've learned with the pandemic actually Goldsmiths College of doner academic survey which I know they mentioned at the comp the Lucian local state of the sector conference her Eddie this month which are due to publish the findings in January so certainly I think what we what Goldsmith's will come out with will be really interesting and I think will help us move forward in terms of how we fund the sector from the 20 22 I just wanted to say those few words just to give you a bit more context to what my thinking was and you know in terms of obviously the proposal that you seen regarding the maintenance programme
thank you thank you Councillor Slater and take the final question I think is a final question from Councillor Rock Band and then we'll and see where else backstreet yet on sowing doubt like to echo a lot of what Jin said in regards to the financial situation in particular really about how it's just evidence of the ongoing austerity being forced upon local authorities across the country by central government
so I was interested in what might be looking at Tom is the way that some of the post savings could potentially have a detrimental effect on our ability to achieve others so to pick out an example you've got on proposal C 0 8 4 akin to mobile telephony supports the idea that we reduce the number of mobile devices which are issued to staff that staff looking issue of laptops and phones would only have internet on one of those devices and would need a hot spot on so that's a good example really of how
that I got queries about how it would interact with other proposals like a 0 1 which is the staff proactivity savings and D 0 6 which is the estate consolidation quite a lot of proposals relate to the idea that staff will be working remotely income home and that we can accordingly reduced the amount of office space we use and make significant savings there
I think you've got something like to see 0 8 which would seem to directly Fretton those savings because if you're cutting back a number of mobile devices you issue arm if you're taking money out about budget if you're making it harder to use them then surely the ability of staff transition effectively to remote working as impacted and that's my worry really as but in a couple of places and is just one example we've got proposals which have answered a potential to be detrimental on our ability to achieve the savings I don't want to find us in a situation where two yo cut an extra 50 thousand pounds somewhere we take something which then is going to hold us back from being able to fully achieve you know potentially hundreds of thousands or even millions of pounds of savings elsewhere in the proposals
I think Councillor record absolutely
share that that anxiety that we and it of and I think that one of the and one of the benefits of taking a a themed approach an across Council approach to this is to try to make sure we didn't slip into any of those bear traps so that and specific point about the telephony I think at the moment some people have two or three mobile devices all with Sims in them and we probably started using them and when most of us if we had if we had a smartphone it was a real novelty and when as my children would say would have had an embarrassingly low amount of data to use whereas now we routinely have smartphones that we and that we can tether on and and the other I certainly and worked it with with my laptop tethered to my phone and it been as good as my Wi-Fi connection in the office or at home and at times better and so we need to make sure that people have the right kit I think the investment in technology that we've had to make in this year actually has helped put into sharp focus that you're making sure we've got the right kit does liberate people to work flexibly and in a more agile way and actually unpicking on them that that that that the Chair's point about making sure we don't force people down roots actually one of the things that we've been able to do this year is give people flexibility to to work around their own their home lives around childcare responsibilities and things like that and it's absolutely but an gain in productivity that we want to capitalise on one of the things the and one and things that we've noticed in this year has been the amount of staff sickness has actually dropped and we think that's because people haven't felt they had to come in the office all the time to do their work so we ask that we are thinking of the opportunities and making sure we don't drop the balls and sought to say will be bitterly be perfect and I'm sure there will be some things that we will need to revisit but we are alert to the concern in the same way we also want to make sure that and we don't do something in the style of which has been of shunt costs and another bit of the Council
brilliant thank you thank you very much and thank you for your question command staff and constant afternoon I'm I just quickly want to check the full we check our are referrals and Councillor Brown did you have a comment that you wanted to make or say or you satisfied with what you put in the charts
if it were ever going in the report and is now chair all I say is that the referral that has been never abroad to that the to previous Committees housing and say why pay where it was agreed and was only timing that them allowed to get to sustainable development that has come out of feedback from councillors across the board on further information in certain aspects that they would like to see in report going forward air we've seen tonight that have been a reaction and was talk about what the paper that pulled it put together except a which is appreciated the circumstances but it's full particularly the report coming out in January with the second tranche of cuts that included information and if I just never may say and does read Councillor response referral and be there they go together basically so that's the background coded it's a response to colleagues feed back thank you
thank you thank you Councillor Brown and Kate C
asking me now because you come in and do we need to read out the referrals they cease to be a few yet sorry sorry I didn't thank Tom properly for responding to all those questions I see is good off-screen thank you very much on sorry for being rude here thanks go to OK it yet so I can read out what's in the Chair but yet for the sake of clarity for anyone watching I'm and further minutes and you want me to read the referrals that attend yesterday so then there the whole Committee can agree them OK so there's referral from Councillor Brown that the impact of a proposed cut on users of a service the impact of the proposed cutting staff at the service he impact of the cut on service overall and acumen cumulative impact on the cut on L B as a whole should be included in upcoming budget reports so that's the first proposal EFA forward for referral
you want to take whether that's agreed and then move on to the next with that busiest
is that the I agree Councillor Handley yes does that OK Councillor phone and Councillor Molly without too much so owing about speeds that same set of referrals but I think it's been submitted PFI the housing select committee so it's not actually with one additional one in their and is it really necessary to replicate another committees on recommendations when are all going to go to pack anyway
just seems a big step for us to me even though I don't as I said if I thank you as I said Jim that has been there are plastered housing and Act say why pay it will be going to pack too and it would have been passed in sustainable development it you can call it a judgement call this information is very strongly been put forward by our colleagues that the one it's there in the report going forward in his term beds to way
it's too believe are the point of a United front there to going forward that read one report put together as the rationale behind it it other committees new fence as the mannerly thank you Chair will I'm having some difficulty because I can't see a set of recommendations at the same time and as both Councillor Brown and Councillor Rathbone said there is an overlap between mothers suggesting an and so
I mean we can pass them separately and and try and make some sense of them a pack as to how they overlap or we could
so this is partly that the problem was visit with a remote meeting because we've had both of them thrown at us in the middle of Meeking rather than in advance it's quite difficult to to do a back of the envelope bullets redrafting again and I'm not suggesting that because I just think that over-complicated I just wonder whether we could pass them both and hope that
somebody makes some sense of how best day they can be Inter enter interrelated before we get to pack or else leave it to pack to sort out the difference because while I have some sympathy with with changes comment about if somebody else's already passed it I have no objection to anything it
On the other hand I think came says
were references is slightly more specific to us so feels to me like we should be
for the sake of not delivering and less passed them both and leave poor old pack to sort it out I guess up
OK so Sir early with can we look at now we need to agree a set I'm happy to take the referral from Councillor Brown and do the terrible thing and needed at to sort out and so come M can members of the Committee just confirm that they're OK to do that Surrey
I have agreed to be precise journey are you proposing that we take fee refer was just by Councillor bit of by Bell and 5 the so many dairy green I listing that we tell lot
and now we're gonna go to your C-Plan separately Iker
OK so if that looks at life easier there I'm thank you Kate these at once agreed should move on to reading the next one out for thank you very much and that service Equalities impact and Human Resources impact assessments be carried out which considered the proposed cuts on a cumulative basis to that the likely impact of the proposed cuts on individuals with multiple and complex needs be considered in more detail 3 that the proposals be examined to ensure that they do not contain cuts that would have a detrimental effect on the achievements of other savings
I'm any exit everybody I like those I read the very safe for specific we all greener Pauline agree fabulous thank you so and we've got the wording right about the wording right at Committee so will take both of those to pack thanks Katie 8 Pinkie
right moving on to the item secret year referring him and the one of my form almost varied questions at the end of my comment was worth to get some sense of the the second tranche of PSPOs and I wonder whether perhaps David Austin rather than tarmac road that either of them to at to answer that where were high what was what where where Rat where we're at with a mother than we're gonna get more in January and I'd related that to the achievability of the first tranche and and
I mean I suppose it's how long is a piece of string but it's it's trying to get some sense of of what is anticipated or is this all in the hope that the government is actually going to deliver some money back and therefore the second tranche
it may not be quite so pain may not be there because the second tranche is going to get more painful than this and we'd what we haven't said is how painful that some of this is accepting our comments about you know looking at the at at the overlap and the possible duplication and whether too many thank you know that we've considered things and so I'm just wary of the second tranche of if we think this is difficult they were going to get even more I'm concerned when we come to the second tranche
could I be I don't know how much of that you can answer Tom he give her a little bit ahead about briefly well as
very flippantly once said Councillor Barry I think we probably have more look at them putting numbers on the lottery than try to wait for the chancellor to give us any more money but we are I think you're absolutely right this this this is absolutely painful and the that we are we still haven't got all of the money that we need for the 34 million it even in that other refers of cuts that I've seen and we asked but we're starting to get there we do know that we had some additional increment and end up drop possibilities for income as the continuation of the precept for adult social care and the continuation of the social care grant air which we we used the Children's this year and some of the New homes bonus and things like that that the reduced rate that we were not factoring in so there's that there is some mitigation but it's not anywhere near what we we really need so and
there are some
the report that the work is going on but we are edging closer to wants and that the figure but it's them it is very painful it is deliberate it is deliverable I don't think anything has been put it is being good for the Irish Sea that is not deliverable but an painful and impactful yes and David I don't know if you want to add anything to that
I need to confirm that has cast a Mallory's suspicions that yet it will get more difficult I mean this is difficult enough and of course the further we go it was interesting that in the comprehensive spending Review that more than half of the money that was off to Local government we have to raise for ourselves through things like the precept but those are considerations that will give us some flexible
and public accounts are looking at the monitoring next week and actually the overspending position is improving and the more we can do of that year that that the lower the number but nonetheless there is a significant in the in the multi-millions gap to close out and that cannot be done without without some difficulty and to to come back to the discussion of the Committee this evening and with Paul on the call as well you have got Appendix 9 which starts as Tom said in his first answer to the first question Katherine then starts to pull together some of that summary analysis and an obviously will carry that through in responses you know that the proposed referral from Councillor Brown about ensuring that in future reports with we we bring out more clarity in in in those areas that that is peculiar difficulties impact as well as the individual Booktime this committee impact does have that first cut as will Mayor and Cabinet of course on the night of dissembler
and that there was a question that you asked him constantly around what Chrishall you put it on the government to make sure the way they do
say what do what they said they were going to do in terms of the money is there any specific work being done on that the funding well we
we participated and I think the Mayor responded to this when we were doing the stabilisation report and and the caved update in September October time that through London Councils in particularly but also through the LGA would lobbying not just for Lewisham but for London and for the sector nationally that the funding had to be appropriate and actually there are some numbers in the spending review but how much of it closely Tillerson we have to wait to the details I don't want to over overstate the position but there were some numbers in spending re that recognised that the the covert impact now will continue into next year everything we've had so far albeit leaving us with a gap
has been for this year only and now there is the beginning of the recognition that the recovery will take longer so that in addition to the base budget challenges to what we've been talking to the seasoning that there are monies promised for next year towards some of the one off costs of covert extending into next year so and in particular around the council tax losses the collection Fund piece which is obviously a very significant part of how we get our income now it's now over 50 per when it will be over 50 percent of our funding will come from local residents so that that's an important point and that money will be helpful although it will be a temporary patch rather than a solution to the ongoing local government finance challenge
thank you both thank you David and Frankie town and I'm are you satisfied with that comes the money my White to move onto the next item you I mean I I just wanted to make sure that they got acknowledged I mean they gave me the answers I was affecting but but I just felt we needed to have some statement about so little
thank you

6 Select Committee work programme

we'll be moving on to the literally minutes ago final item on the agenda which is our Committee Work Plan and Katie could you give us an update on their work Blanche's salesman's thanks to Councillor Campbell
yes just to we've got a number of changes to the next meeting which is for the Committee to note that the voluntary sector response to Covid will be removed or it's them it's not urgent business that the Committee wants to prioritise at the moment and be report on violence against women and girls and is now postponed until the March meeting and other luck it's just to and look at the table as usual end request any specific details one of the major items is the budget as you've seen and you've already in the last referral made made comments on that which will be part of this work programme report as well
he added
sorry thank you thank you for Katie and can I just confirm with the Committee that those changes in their work plan are agreed
agreed agreed glow Kilgour can I just check that so I mean I'd it makes sense that the next meeting focuses on the budget and referrals we'd made I suppose there are a number of them particularly those from Councillor upon her specific to this committee so we want to be able to pick them up at that meeting and as it'll be our last shot having so I mean I think that you know I mean I officers are undeterred pressure already but I just think we need to highlight that that's what we're expecting and to come back on the next meeting
I think so we've agreed that those changes of the work plan and and those refer was officer go to pack son dead on 9 o'clock Hathin please our any tabled thieving from
I really think I killed or so afterwards saying thank you thank you everyone for your contributions and please note that the next meeting on the 14th January and we still are webcasting so we're in there are some who would you let us know when there were cast as finish please