Healthier Communities Select Committee - Wednesday, 13th January 2021 at 7:30pm - Lewisham Council Webcasting

Healthier Communities Select Committee
Wednesday, 13th January 2021 at 7:30pm 









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1 Minutes of the meeting held on 11 November 2020
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2 Declarations of interest
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3 Responses from Mayor and Cabinet
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5 Select Committee work programme
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  1. Webcast Finished

thank you
good evening special welcome to those watching at home and members of the press who may be watching welcome to this meeting of healthier Communities Select Committee
myners John Morgan and the Chair of the Committee Councillor Rushey Green Ward and before we actually get into the business of the meeting as got a few announcements to read out apologist to members the Committee may have heard me say a few minutes ago but it's it's just the protocol for having a teams meeting absolute different from being face-to-face let's remember the Committee your cameras should be switched off until it's your item on the agenda or have asked you to speak please keep your microphone muted until you are invited to speak if you want to communicate with me to say you ask the question please type Q in the chat function to indicate you wish to speak that that does mean I can see which order people have indicated a make sure that I don't feel don't leap frog people in the queue and when you as speak for the first time please state who you are state your name and a
councillors A C initially herself as a councillor or if you epaulette organisation or an officer just just just say who you are so the public watching a home tonight Shaw later but actually know or who you are and
any other messages of questions left on the chat panel will not be responded to it's not the general discussion not for asking and what you doing later if you get disconnected from the meeting then because of technical difficulties joined rejoined during the link that you been sent this meeting is being webcast recording will be available on the Council website over the coming days so first of all other any apologies John
none received no no apologies receipt as Councillor Smith and with difficulties and logging manal his is on his way
thank you

1 Minutes of the meeting held on 11 November 2020

thank you very much and we have been the next item on the agenda is minutes of the last meeting and and these are in the paper pack there from patient 3 2 page 10 I think pay was Campbell cheap h-t
so it on here
what's the point
massive 660 thousand people landed science
so can you speak I gay a lot of ECO
I think some lift the microphone on SHA
it must send off them
OK 5 point plan again I know that was I athletes carry on them so I spoke about the and agenda and the second item on the agenda I was II V the first item on the agenda is minutes of the meeting held on the 11th November 20 20 which is pages I think 3 to 8 on my paper copy
I was wondering whether any comments any amendments any emissions that need that need rectifying

2 Declarations of interest

the minutes agreed to the Minister agreed I had no dissent a minute are agreed next items declaration of interest which is pages some and 9 onwards from the paper agenda and other any fan interest with members have to declare
if any matters arising in the course of the evening that people wish to declared interesting or suddenly realise a have an interest call them out and they will be recorded by the scrutiny manager John Barden's so as if he if you subsequently remember then by all means call them out later
then send a text just just just for the plucky you in the comments in the Czech column and I'll call you and you can say I forgot to declare an interest arrival interested there I'm

3 Responses from Mayor and Cabinet

4 Budget cuts

ITEM 3 then is responses from Mayor and Cabinet we have no responses we now move on to the substantive item for the night with its the budget cuts proposals now members will recall that at the last meeting of this Committee the work programme is slightly larger than this there were a couple of other items to be considered and before Christmas I had agenda planning meeting on the 11th December and I did
ask if it was possible to actually notwithstanding the excellent work being done by and the adult social care team whether and and the NHS staff whether we could actually address these issues and we agreed in the circumstances to defer for one week and until the 18 December to see how events unfolded on the 16th of December the prime minister addressed the nation about the as development of the COVID crisis and on the 18th of December I agreed that or justly one item on the agenda tonight which is the cuts and the other items of not disappeared they'd been deferred and and I hope a future happier time we'll Bell to address them but tonight and I believe it's the same across sup most select committees will only be looking at the cuts and
reasons being do not have the staff resource in the NHS and in in our Adult social Care Directorate Division to actually be doing supporting the Committee on anything but the most urgent and critical matters and I'm sure them as will agree that I made the right decision on Officer advice of course but when my decision again to the day my decision was we should only look at the Quds tonight so tonight
we have the budget cuts proposals we have had discussions in other places about this and comments made that tonight we'll hear from Tom Brown executive director of Gimme services and we've also got David Austin who is at the premiere resources Directory division and and he'll be able to tackle some of the more complex detail financial aspects so you should know what the cuts are I think a navigation she'd has been sent around saying what's up for discussion tonight O'Gara's Tom Brown to kick off by just giving us an introduction so Tom are before you start once again thank you please pass on my and I'm sure my Committee will join me and our thanks and gratitude to the how hard work being undertaken by members of staff in the Community Services Darroch's
so to come before thank you very much for that Chair and that's will be widely appreciated by the staff so we will get little certainly pass that on to me we do appreciate member understanding and support so before we go into the the individual cuts proposals are just as it would it be helpful to reiterate some of the
the key messages around the budget because while the Council is continuing to do everything it can to support residents and businesses during this pandemic at despite the feud of prudent financial management to date we are still forced to confront a a huge budget gap and as a result of a decade of Goodman cuts and underfunding which does seem the Council's budget reduced by 50 percent and of course notions not alone in this challenge across the country the local Goodman funding gap is more than 4 billion pounds to keep services running
we're being transparent with residents and with partners by detailing the cuts and sharing as much information as possible and we've been realistic explaining the scale of the challenge and the the very difficult decisions that we as a Council have to face so these proposals that will be discussing today to prioritise
protecting frontline services and transforming the way the Council works but there will of course be reductions in some services and the deletion of some posts and that those that are detailed in the the proposals in the proformas at part of the of the PAC and of but over the next three years the jollity of cuts will be delivered by continuing to transform the way the Council works
at the last meeting which was before the the Local government financial Settlement current was confirmed we have a gap of at least 40 million pounds and an overspend of 10 million pounds in our medium term financial plan for the coming three years
the settlement was marginally better solution than when the expected this means that we now need to find about 28 million pounds in the coming financial year
the round one cuts agreed in December and provide would provide 15 million of those and the cuts that we are considering starting this evening is a further 13 million and if accepted in full as part of the council setting budget will close the gap for the coming year
we can't pretend the covert hasn't had a significant impact on the Council's budget it's continuing to cast a huge amount of uncertainty on local government finances and although we've received a one of a number of payments from the government totalling about 10 million pounds and had so confirmation that further irrecoverable to incurred losses for example council tax receipts will be funded
that that may cover the majority of our current related out goes and nursed revenue we remain very concerned about the ongoing pressures of the pandemic and it's hard to quantify how that will look and we got no assurances from government about funding into 21 22
significant concerns are the impact on the economy local businesses relying on plans and rate relief at the moment and we can't predict how many will survive and be able to pay their business rates
the end of the furlough scheme and the potential rise in employment in unemployment may make a greater dependency and council services in the Council Tax reduction scheme
to be an increased demand for services in particular housing homelessness waste collection disposal commercial rents and
of course the impact on our partners as well who jointly commissioned services in particular the health service our social care providers and indeed our skills
but we do need to make these cuts we can't wait to see if we received more fully the expected
the Council needs to make the cuts now the grant is half what it was 10 years ago will also overspending in year and as a result these cutting increased as a result of these cuts an increased demand for services
there's an ongoing financial certainty across local government as the Goodman continues to provide us with one year financial settlements so that means we have to plan our budgets on a series of Sumption's assumptions
it's a regardless of future funding we've got outrageous million pound gap for next year and the proposals being put forward in this paper will allow us to close that gap and settle a balanced budget
of course we need to continue to monitor our financial position
but the projected cuts coupled with the uncertainty of Cohmad beans of me with continued to make cuts and efficiencies
to make sure we can provide the vital services that our residents rely on
the proposals that we are bringing forward added to the total amount we need to save so I would need to emphasise that not passing even one of the proposals closes a significant risk and would require an alternative cut to be found elsewhere that could be implemented quickly so that we can deliver a balanced budget for next year
such at the up on the basis of about introduction in that background them could I now take us through the that that that the proposed cuts pertinent to this committee and which
so I am just checking on my place of as you take up on other under Falcons' passed up the Mayor can involve how other social cacti have anything decided to stage
Councillor bestial muted
they go to and thank you very much and thank you for allowing me and to say a few words and really it's just to to reiterate Tom you know the whole we know as account so and and we had conversations elsewhere the Government's austerity agenda really has continued and it's getting worse
whilst we're not touching on the Adult social Care precept the seasoning I would say that we have the ability to raise an extra 3 percent but you know we all know in the long run it's just not fair and it's not sustainable plan so from my point of view were urgently need the government to deliver on its promises and fixed the funding model for Adult social Care as Tom has said you know we really and distress corporately but just raising a pre-set isn't the answer we've had 10 percent on precepts over the last few years and another 3 percent just doesn't seem right for our residents to pay we know we've got a growth in the demand for adult social care services and that reflects national trends because people are living longer with complex medical needs which is a great success but we're under pressure because we have to look at the demand look at the cost and of course during that and we'll talk in a bit more detail we do want to help people remain independent and access care for as long as possible so I think tonight we can go through these proposals you know we can talk about individual cuts that we are obliged to make because of the Government's failure but ultimately as a Council we should be fighting the government and making sure we get the best use of resources we can to really serve the most vulnerable in our community thank you very much Chair or fad thank you Deputy Mayor and thank you for coming I hope I have not encountered earlier so Sir along even for you
executive because you want to take us through the cuts and work on proposing we take them one at a time and we got as big a rolled up on the and after 24 as well with my taker some time but are asking on the clock and trying to detain people past midnight
thank you thank you Chair but appreciated there so the that the first could I think person to this country is is a be 11 which is improved usage of the better Care funding for members who am may not know the background behind the better Care Fund it's a pool of money that comes to adult social care and with the express intention of developing integration with the NHS and supporting the delivery of health services and the fund and it's subsidence as of
cousin is I would want to think that the improved better Care Fund in total give us a value across health and social care of around 35 million pounds this is spent in in the health service with community health the acute hospital with slum and indeed with adult social care models of care providers and it also funds some of our voluntary sector partners
the way that the fund has like much of the government's funding over the last 10 years it's appeared episodically and increased episodically we now at a place where we think that that growth and needs to be read the way that we've deployed that needs to be reviewed to get best value from its and the fund itself won't go down that we understand will be fixed next year but the way that we deploy that would be able to offset cost pressures elsewhere and release some savings so the proposal is and we've already started to identify some and duplication in spend across various contracts between it within the NHS that we will be able to free up to and invest elsewhere
thank you and before we go on closure say that there were some other concert as hoping we'd be an addressing which were basal fall out
the 0 5 days 0 8 Beezer 9 which had been discussed elsewhere so I hope we will see discussed below now is apologies Chair that that wasn't unlike that that they aren't they seem to have been missed off my navigation she's been stopped and it be be 11 so let them cable to until the best I can to let let let's stick with be 11 at the moment and and I am
so so the 11 at the local council best you have anything to add to be 11 at the moment
and you'll muted again I throat there so I think is Thomas outlined this is working closely with partners I think we we can get some efficiencies out of it and I think from our discussions we would want to make sure that there weren't ramifications that would lead to a diminution of service I think the way it's been presented it's a partnership with the CCG we're going to work together to see if we can streamline and offer a better service but not ultimately to have any cuts in the quality it's really getting a better approach a better way of doing things
can't Councillor Howard Aswan indication but your message disappeared I know
yes thank you John added at it for 2 no top for a question but I don't know what happened to it and the good deleted it possibly I can't carry on carry on her apologies or Vice Chair of the Committee I just like to ask at this point although I know will be looking at F 24 later that these are two areas where there are going to be considerable monies available and of course it's it's you know a good idea to look at what is replicated and how it can be used more efficiently but it been it be helpful to know the time table for making decisions and proposals on these two large reviews
and for us to be
the indications to come back to the Committee from time to time how the how they reviewers are actually developing thank you
could I respond to Archer I'll go out other national police was this so some points
larger different point this I got I thought it does suggest that as a councillor Howard as it has a very reasonable question and I would hope at that the review of the better Care Fund has already started and M working with
the CCG and with the trust to their took to work through that and identify how we could better use that money so I would anticipate bringing an update to the the next meeting of healthier select on that and likewise the and the bigger piece of work around the them effortful will I will certainly be bringing an updates and with with where we are on that to the next meeting as well and I would hope that we would have a fair about the specificity in that as well thank you very much thank you
I think I'm you to check
Arthur his luck it's easy have the kinds of other any other comments on as 11
no no so we we we make no caught me I'm at be 11 of course not every 11 31 and the paying attention at if we go back now to the B B 0 for smoking cessation service and
I think can turn Etchells you've met by another budget is it not yet yes sorry Chair yes that is yes
yeah it's it's going to be funded by the Saudis London Clinical Commissioning Group as regards the council having a message has to get out that actually the CCG have agreed to pay for this service although the council won't be turning it yes that there's a pit a paper will be good affordable people will be going to the next PCT Board to confirm that said the first of the kind I to be 0 force these errors or so that that will be being funded by the CCG I think we need to just get the communications right that is being funded just not pie the council yet it seems
a way forward to the 0 5 is rear chanting and occupational therapy housing of the cost of disabled facilities Grant Tom guest 30 m that that the terms of the disabled suit his been allowed at any capital and project costs to be charged to and that the grant funding that in itself is a a fund that we receive and through the better Care Fund if the capital is not spent it has to be returned to the HSC as us to treasury so like many councils we are now adopted proposing that wheat you capitalise legitimate charges earth for the delivery of adaptations be drug adaptations to people's properties and that that will help reduce the pressure on the revenue budgets that the stuffing for both housing stuff involved in the adaptations and the occupational therapy stuff
and others I would also say that the the disabled since his confers historically and them underspent year on year because that to get those adaptations done and at the that that the works out of the door is as it in all councils is very difficult
I thank you and so for full clarification are
Theo for doesn't appear in this agenda packet was sent out because was really considered at the at a previous committee of in December so Members who kept their papers or have online access able to see it there and Councillor S anything you wanted to comment on
and again your muted so we'll have have practice after with Alec I'm looking so I'm reading off the screen so it takes me a bit of the world to swap but then the key issue is to miss said is making sure we spend it been we know there's a lot of demand in the community for disabled facilities Grant I think we're obliged really to work with our colleagues in housing how can we smooth this over how can we remove any barriers to make sure we do spend the money it's a crying shame that we year on year underspend on the capital and that is obviously I don't have any problem with the the cut to charge on to capitalisation but you need to do the capitalisation spend so you've got the charge to go through and that is what we really got to focus on to really help our residents makes a claim and you know it will improve their homes it will cover things like new boilers it will improve insulation there's a Enoh it's defined but I think we need to work closely with partners to get that spend up thank you other of or comments from Members on that
I see no indication we then move on to be Europe 8 which some was discussed be discussed another place at some length and it's about the power of attorney service which although we may say it only applies to a small number of people to those people to whom it does supply is extremely significant because our sound the most vulnerable people
in our community so Tom yes thank thank you Chair so yes this this currently the Council in our re resources directorate to support a and a number of people who are unable to manage their own funds and it's a apropos 80 people and it's the reference to our around about five million pounds in total and the that the proposal is that the Council seeks and them an external provider of of this service which will make a as a significant saving of of around 100 and 60 thousand pounds a year and there are some and proposals I think the Council conscious raise that I know colleagues are exploring around working with the the banks and their social that run their social value and and and
we are also exploring options with boundary sector partners as well to see if they would be able to take this function on it is a it is a complex issue and it is something that we we certainly do have to make sure that we have got provisions to protect the assets of people who have nobody else to do that and we it looks equally if if if it if it goes wrong we would be deemed to be negligent so we have to handle the sensitively and make sure we get it right is I think director is said the e-mail you might a very salient point that these are people who have no one else to look after thoroughfares we we are the last resort for them I think it behoves us to ensure that we took probity and I have had representations from elsewhere that we recommend that the Council continued to provide the service in house and charge the service they should not be penalised because they got knowing us to look after them and to those often trust they trust the council they trust the council social workers and I think I think that I pick that sentiment up from elsewhere so I think I think we do have some difficulty and accepting that cut in that way then Councillor best or you do you have anything can you articulate better
no I'd I'd and I agree with you and Durm I had erm or Councillor Howard will know where we had a recent case locally where the power of attorney you know we say their learning points from the the exercise that I think the Council
really we need to streamline the process and we need to make sure where we can we are recovering the costs but he's that trust element and we know in the past when we have used them outside organisations
it's so important that there's probity and on that occasion there wasn't so we've had our fingers burnt in the past and an inner if the Committee's minded to make that recommendation back through you know your your avenues then clearly I think it's one our colleagues need to take on board because as you say that there's no other place for in a technically these residents without mental capacity so who's gonna back for them
I think the point is also proposed that we should obviously charge them for it as well because if they were to use another organisation they would have to pay we need to fail to satisfy ourselves and these on residents that we can offer a quality fit for purpose service at a fair price as well
but it goes under the premise of Lewisham who can trust so that's not to disparage any charities or third sector organisations who may be doing the work but I think people do trust Lewisham they trust the name or trust with social services social workers so I think that would be an act and unless any one is so opposed to that suggestion a gap Councillor Smith you Mr. area at a I did say if people put a queue in the comments so the financials you because I think you weren't here when I when I read the protocol air was still trying to still trying again to yet you all remember next time and I just had a quick comment on them quite briefly I have shared my sister the pair of attorney for my mother who has dementia and through so little scrutiny
estimated anything that carers can provide clues absolutely nothing that would stop my sister myself other than our own sense of duty from stripping her recount completely buried we felt like it and it would worry me intensely if we were to
format this kind of power to access other people's money and goods and assets without some kind of that very strong scrutiny of it keeping it in house keeps that scrutiny going and it's that and I would advocate that we kept in house where it can be very carefully checked and watched because these are very been able people
that thank you for that section
thank you for your kind and some other any other comments on on that point at Chair if I could just make what one biologist at that distance reassure Councillor fit and the rest of the panel that anybody at them that
whether we support them or indeed it was somebody independent from the Council and that there would be scrutiny by the court of protection to their Supply's just to reassure as that that wealth where family members rebelled clearly that doesn't happen in the same way but them where it's an organisation that the port of protection this urban 60 to provide that that level of safety
yes I'm overcorrected I think is a rather cumbersome process though they engage or the Court of Protection and not a cheep process either
no it's it's ethic 400 pounds a time that springs to mind yes which comes out of the person's assets
it has to come from the public purse does it now so I think I I've had no no other indications to speak on us I think I stand by the recommendation as I read earlier and when our then have to be thorough 9 reduction discretion you order concessionary fares and it has been much discussion of this of having in this committee and and elsewhere also
so I don't know Tom are you able to this has been a busy and I proposal to cease providing discretionary award of concessionary fares from April 20 21
and yet it said of the cautioned though it said this is a
that there are very clear guidelines for people who
meets the eligibility criteria for things like the Freedom Pass and then there are discretionary
fares as discretionary concessions that count individual councils can make and Lewisham historically has been able to provide a more generous said the concessions than many other Councils do and I think that that this proposal is to reduce that discretion and it will of course impact upon people who are probably marginalised in other ways and an
it will not have an impact upon the most adult social care and service users because they would fall into the the the broader eligibility the TEFL run and but it would be folk who are on the on the margins of social care and some felt the margins indeed of society and probably living in in poverty so and we would
the stopping something that we have been able to provide them but we would not be providing something at would not be going against what most other London boroughs are currently continuing to provide
I'm thank you Nigel you wish to speak
his thank you very much Chair and National bonus burners health were solution and I just to generalise from that point a little on the supplementary agenda as a very helpful equalities analysis of the impact of the cuts and understanding if perhaps we could turn
get a little bit more about the process who was involved in that and how that how that process relates to the refreshed process for looking at embedding a conscious Lewisham that very cabinet approved in November last and cause that touches on punitive impact socio-economic issues of mentioned Tom so thank you thank you Tom any comes on about either having very very sound point because so when we talk about people more than 1 OK disability is not merely at a tenth Assistant geometric in its impact so the cumulative effect is much greater than simple addition so Talmud etc. If at out about I would also say that at this is something that has been brought a build safer stronger and at the public accounts but that didn't ask David Austin that to to talk further to the detail because he's been more involved in with that piece of work that I have a David Austin
think Town and throttles the question of the process due to self-police your role so David Austin director for corporate services in the Council so on the Finance side but also responsible for co-ordinating and pulling together the papers at your discussing this evening sent as the process when we prepared individual phases we asked the service managers to ensure they consider the equalities staffing financial impacts and any specific legal implications of their proposals in respect of economies of scale all the protected characteristics and it's from that that we then draw together the appendix are referred to in the Supplementary agenda to the analysis
it's relatively high level it has to be because it's an aggregation of in this case when you put round 1 and 2 together 95 proposals but it does draw out the key characteristics that are concerned more widely the council is also working as a Thomas referred to the the work of the Safer stronger have been leading on to bring together a stronger policy and strategy framework for for equalities and then that appendix will be discussed in more detail with them tomorrow and it's through that process that we try and in the aggregation and sure that we see the cut across for and against any particular characteristics where they might be impacted by a number of proposals so that we look at the cumulative impact as well as the individual concerns around any particular proposal and in both cases starting first at the individual level but then also in aggregate we considered what mitigations may be needed idle could be introduced to help protect against the potential vessel and impacts identified so I have that explains the process we follow that explains how we ask the content in in the appendix you reverting bright some thank you and any follow up Nigel
yes if I made sure I think it would be helpful to where to get some services are infer input into that and perhaps Cern or third party assurance about about the process from for appropriate bodies so Lucian disabled people's commissioned come to mind but the maybe other organisations I think Metro for LGBT shoes and just just to give some assurance about the about the process thank you very much
thank you and any comments and I'll comments on this from members of the Committee
something I think we we we hear we hear the Arkansas had been put forward
we we dealt with the the 11 earlier this evening and C 0 2 adult learning and day opportunities are through better integration between Adult Learning and Al social care would develop the offer to provide create targeted Learning supports those was lend support is to improve outcomes reduce costs of social provision from Adult social Care budget and I'll Tom for if I put you on the hop but we little discussion about these cuts the other day this work which has informed our discussion tonight so too could speak briefly about
fat cut yes thank you Chair yes I think that we are in a very good we were very well positioned in the ocean with having an excellent Adel learning service and we have a new principal who's taken over from the fabulous work I have taken the Geraldton venomous would now has his horses' had started before he was moved on
but one of the things that we don't do very well input and that we were trying to address is employment opportunities and and being able to support people with disabilities and learning disabilities in particular to move on in their life towards greater independence and part of the I think that that the alignment of the that the service the changes that we want to develop it added learning Lewisham and and in particular as part of our transitions planning is preparing for adulthood is to be able to link in the universal education of it with our targeted services and and
be able to support more people to become independent to go onto ideally employment in some way shape or form to job carving and in the council with our health partners other top keep it to a key employers to be able to and provide opportunities for people for volunteering and our people just to continue to grow and to learn in their lives and by doing us through adult learning and not only will listen better normalised the opportunities for these young people and it will also mean the we don't have to provide some of the bod traditional services that rear that have been round been Days's
so we think that this is the right thing to do it's it's not an easy thing to do and what it can be achieved and will enrich people's lives going forward and and I think that we as a Council as a major employer in the borough actuals or have a duty to to to be leading the way on this as well and it will also save money but it's doing the right thing that for me is the driver behind this yes thank you I think there are a couple of of Commonside nation and I see as a Council pursue wishes to address some of the Committee and Don are scattered section of the constitution under Standing orders of the Council anyway and I think there is a need for other learning to recognise the potential for operating all the year round 12 months of the year to me to the needs of that that the service users so adding that this retained and also at this busy joined up working within the council and others will be jobs available so far as is possible
saga during those the points out May and I think Councillor pursue might want to expand on those customers 3
yes you get chilly covered my point serve a fundamental review of the rail
I'd raised many places the problem that some people who get service from adult education obviously the very long holiday days that adult education and it gives means it leads people sometimes without interesting daytime occupation and secondly that that is always aspirational for employment but post COVID so many people are going to be unemployed I think that there's going to be very fierce competition for employment and I think that's going to make things much worse your own the job market for people who particularly those who have Learning disabilities who who find it very difficult to to compete and people can get trapped in government imposed oozed work training opportunities I would put that in inverted commas where people are obliged to take part in in terms of seeking activity week after week month after month and sometimes year after year I know one young man who I think had to participate in work of sinking activity for about four years and in the end he did the managed to get a part time job but that a it's it's been her or her arranges process for him and I think we've got to be very careful particularly post Covey that we got in our mind what the job market going to be like and not just for people with disabilities but for others also making sure that they have interesting daytime opportunities for activity that are not necessarily employment and I think that the the idea that Adult Education might run for for longer P be it wouldn't just be for people with disabilities actually because I think there's going to be an awful lot of people who who will be looking for for their own wellbeing useful daytime activity the isn't solely around job opportunities that might not be there
you're on Bewcastle
Councillor S Murphy the cases and did it the right way this time yet
of the a brief comment first bullet seek Adult Education
I'm sorry excuse me that adult education vision changed my life in the late eighties and I'm not talking about my letter dated so talking about last century you know in a way that it was really quite unimaginable but
for people now given the state the job market is likely to be in and when we come out a lockdown at anybody who turns up even for the simplest of basic paid jobs
if they got a piece of paper with a minor qualification was some sort it gives them an instant advantage and if we can give the people lotion that advantage them we are serving our purpose of helping our communities it is an incredibly important institution in this borough comment on them
thank you as other I think these are very valid points that son at Castle bested an ideal have any comments at this point
thank you very much and and it's pleasing to hear how well regarded adult learning is because I'd other was been a great supporter of it what I would say in listening and to what I'm saying is maybe a corporate approach it does feel to me the no we have set in the past ourselves targets as a Council employer and whether what we should be doing is looking to ourselves to employ more people with them disability and particularly learning disability and also whether we shouldn't reach out to other partners we've one of our things about joint working and should we not think about Heather other healthcare providers such as the CC cheers the hospital we've been their target so I want to check whether you know you might want to reflect on an a comment back about a corporate approach to this yes I'm up of nothing us that's the very sad point well made and screened as a John please please night fattened when we when we come to our conclusions later this evening we can address that any other comments on this cut
we now move on to
there is an urgency are the ones and described as the method check service reconfiguration it means psych I've got to screen tapered trying to keep keep up yes so we we're just be 11 at the start and an Executive Directors when straight into and we're now on to see 13 which is the sexual and reproductive health services in primary care I don't see 12 down which the weight management as I have that then I don't know it's like the director your hand up
is it the Surrey chaired and and and like Councillor Smith do things wrong way round apologies and I also have be 12 which is adult learning notion back office efficiencies and sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I have have that done at from on your agenda up we had some discussions elsewhere so we see the two separate documents flying around at ASB 12 sorry sorry be 12
so as I
following very nicely from the previous conversation I think about the the value and the impacted as a learning Lucian does have on on residents' lives and but in this in this time when we are having to to make cuts although most of the funding for Adult Learning notion comes by the GLA there is a a small budget occam's direct from the Council this cut of 9 6 thousand pounds is aiming to and utilise some of the them
that makes an efficiencies makes some cuts to some of the back office functions at adult learning Lewisham which will mean that there will be there will be minimal impact on the learners but I think add that that they possibly the experience of and people using the service may not be quite a slick but add it's in the scheme of things I think it will impact on the learning opportunities
understand consistent and any comments from members of the Committee on that
so it we're talking about
the the 12 p 12
no I'm
so we move on then to see 12 which is page 1 7 1 21 of your agendas and commenced a town
thank you Chair and so the the through the public Health Grant the Council currently Thun's what are known as tier some Tier 2 Weight Management Services the tier one senses would be and the setts as we know like Weight Watchers and and and and Slimming World and unusually for most councils the council does provide a them at what we call a Tier 2 service which is more specialised and in other places would be told that would be funded by the NHS this proposal aims to take to to stop providing that Tier 2 service but to
pilot a new approach to digital service of the service targeted at the BAME populations who are currently engaging in the way that we would want with some of the other tier 1 services so this is a a net saving a precipice thousand by stopping some those Tier 2 services and started starting more targeted work with some of that saving
can I ask really be carefully monitoring the outcomes of this yes yes absolutely Chair yes because I'd hate to think that something that was singers than it modestly successful is being replaced and we weren't really
the show what the ceiling yes no that I could I can assure you that's update that the folk in public health who were doing the
the staff and nutrition are very
a very diligent in in in the measures of success as an unearthing Manuva's of purposefully relicense convert has had impacts on waistlines and the remedial action will be necessary
in the months to come Nigel you've indicated he'd like to speak Nytol bonus thank you very much Chair yes I'm just wondering affair Members of the BAME communities have been involved or will be involved in the co-design of this new digital offer
sorry at Nigel to be honest I could not say with any certainty that they have been and but I can give an assurance that they will be
rights thank thank you for that assurance and I'm sure that that's the the noted and will possibly be echoed public accounts Select Committee in due course so they were not now do move on to see 13 some page 1 to to her at than that and is about a sexual health
South that reject so this that is again from the put the public health funded service sexual reproductive health it plumbed increases in lock activity that long acted contraception in primary care would be limited and within a you reduce budget
so this is effectively putting a cap on the amount of lock that the council would fund and and alongside that them with because we have got a new digital offer that is available for people of all ages were planning to decommission some says that the cheque yourself as service for a gunnery inclement here and it's a duplication that are not of the online testing that as available for sexual health for all ages
yes I'm
I mean
I think we have discussed the previous are meeting this committee made maybe in the last municipal year the success or otherwise of locks and the adverse son and some of the side-effects some young an experience from the use of locks and and you're not a eels and a condition I note some that I am
do you think there will be any any adverse income or any adverse impact on on reducing the our lock activity
I I am definitely not a clinician Chien but I think that's our public Health team if they felt this was good we see significantly detrimental wooden to been in proposing this to come forward but I put we can double check that yes not I think so because I think south-east London we have had to
and teenage pregnancies are not now I'm not saying that in a derogatory way at all that we do see acquire high proportions of teenage pregnancies Councillor Howard your your your White flashing handed me
and you'll muted as well
farage on I was trying to ask a question previously infer some reason it didn't seem to be going on and the chart had carry on with your question please OK I'm just looking beyond that that sort of more bald activity to the testing for gonorrhoea and Chlamydia obviously online testing is a service very creditable but what is going to be the potential for maintaining clinic access and it also relates to the the following issue on substance misuse as well you know are quite worried about
expecting everything to go online or by post or whatever
whether that's the realistic probably partially but not perhaps totally thank you
from so so that it comes out the check yourself as service as I understand is already on line so we've got to different online systems one which is older than the other and I think that we suggesting that their consolidated I think that what has happened with with with with online testing is that it has been very popular the clinics are still available or will always have to be continued to be available but we have found that many people have
a preferred the convenience of online testing and it's
that that certainly through the covert episodes that the other we have we've taken the historically historically have had a cap on how many of those could be provided in order to manage and that we weren't paid for two different things and different arrangements at Cobham has meant we have to take the cup of that because the various lockdowns and they have that that they have actually blossomed so I think that there will always be a need for in-person an expert equally there's a a different
channelled its people are voting with their feet so to speak and until the taking up
that my that positive thinking not you'll find us
thank you very much to and there's an increase in online testing threatened the viability on the capacity of real world cynics in any way as any work been done to took a bat at it was that the work evident that there is a I'll settle how services are commissioned collaboratively with Lambeth and Southwark and it's in partnership across London so the
there is always the chance that is it is a people chose not to use one sort of service another that the providers may make a decision but actually we have planning to them to work with LGT to took to have a block contract for the provision of sexual health services although I have to say Benny people also choose to use services elsewhere in particular at Chelsea Westminster and because that's people's entitlement they can go where they so wish
I can I wanted CAC can you just briefly explain the tariff for system so apologies that yes some people to go out of far we still have to pay yes we still have to pay an it it is a fixed charge per head across led the dissident activity based rather rather than what we are seeking to do with Lucian of British Trust is have a fixed sum of money within which they will consume the work for the comes to them from our borough
that's fine fine and any other comments on this from
right and cactuses with doing this icing on to talk on this item
no job at the end just a quick question was a clarity at the anger of what meeting at 5 OK thanks to I'm sure we can address that under the work programme on a cancer bestie journeys that of his son cut proposal remover to see 14 then substance misuse cuts again a town
thank you Chair so at the moment and the that that that that the council provides a a whole range of substance misuse services this proposal is it's is as three elements to it the first one is a cut which is around some of the prescribing costs that we again are asking Satis London Clinical Commissioning Group to pick up it is slightly anomalous that we pick up some prescribing costs and whereas most drugs and medications are prescribed and funded through the NHS
we also quite unusually for local authorities provide what are known as tier 4 and rehabilitation services for people with substance misuse problems resited which respectively residential rehab services by and large and most local authorities wouldn't fund those services at the moment we are suggesting that we reduce that that that the about that we provide we were still continued to provide some cheerful residential units but will lose the equivalent of 10 places through the space of a year and and the final at 30 thousand pounds saving is a a budget that is set aside for helping train other at other organisations and also helped with with with engagement with with service users
that is probably the more difficult thing that we would not want to do but this isn't getting rid of the budget altogether it's taking some of that budget out but a lot of it is money that is used to help the training for other organisations and if they want the training they could still get it from us but possibly with NIE to buy it from us rather than us delivering a to them for free
an answer to just think KAL the reduction in FITs could add pressure to hospital
the Chair is it's it's not it's it's a reduction in the number of of placements at we will fund and their their around the country and don't providers so it's it's not a local that's not your a unit that is local if this is the number of places we would buy through the course of the year
right so what I be 12 month placements you together that the typically 12 week placements right
thank you I'll Councillor Jack pursue under Standing orders
it's it along similar lines to it but done she said If you don't fund those placement it's does it mean that there's going to be Lewisham residents that cannot access that service because nobody else is picking up and because that that the the cost all people not getting Our substance abuse help it's got to be greater than of them getting the help in there in the long term so if we stop funding places will they be denied treatment and who picks it up so Councillor pursuit what would we would provide is a community based treatment which is by far where most of the air rehab already happens and and this is this is moving more people into a community based rehab regime than the taking them away from where they're living and he say capacity for that to be provided or can list their debt
and any other comments on this cut proposal
he has succumbed to Gibbons
I'm just going to make brief comment on this it does seem in your opinion and some does it seem is quite expensive to provide these 12 week programmes compared to a community based pensions teams and actually what structured to an individual's lock by you Les
if they are moved from their community
for treatment and how he looked at the effectiveness of these kind of and probably pro grammes as posed to BIC mean seeing opium health support within their community ABS wanted some fortnight it seems to me a reasonable idea we think the actually guess for our services can cope with providing it locally as the as the Celtic given yes we have looked at that actually I think by and large the outcomes for people are better provided in community rehab than in by taking people away from their communities that this
the outcomes residential rehab aren't brilliant it they were for some people but by far the best outcome is is working with people it at home in the community where they're going to be living your for the rest of their life so
any follow up concerns and the thank you write some are thank you thank you and the when the when out that than we we next have an assay 15 integrated sexual reproductive health services some
we talked about this earlier yesterday night some butter I think there are those at that the being concerns raise I don't know if anything that what you said earlier about some concerns what effect will responsibility for funding of PrEP have an unnecessary regular testing yet so PrEP is is funded by the NHS that that is bright as a medication that is funded by the NHS and the testing regime is this the attic this is part of what I alluded to earlier on and around and working around the with with Lewisham and Greenwich trust around deliberate having a single block contract which gives them some stability and also then having alongside that a and
better use of the the service to make sure that we got the right balance so this is we think this this is a a win win situation it gives the Trust's of stability over certainty of income or gives us s more stability and being less prone to volatile changes as people and
attend them and we have to pay on tariff and alongside a affixed understanding of what we will pay on the service as well
right into the heart how well how fit for purpose do you think the communications Sir about this will be
I think that I think that the way that we have worked through the about NHS partners and the political together this then I think this to be very good very good links into the communities
thank you thank you and the Monitoring Officer in that yes yes take right way and I move on to up C. 16 reduction of management overheads for social inclusion recovery Service
such a that's just outside would say that don't this is a a business as usual change that we as we developed the the mental Health Alliance we have brought teams together and what we doubt dealt need is so many managers through bringing those teams together and stripping out some of the back of his functions this ethic this is the right thing to do it's a better model and its end
allowing more resources to go to the front line proportionately think any comments from members of the Committee on that
I think we note that that say something reconfiguration of men never have supported housing
and chaired the at this one is a service that was set up with an aspiration to deal with a as a certain level of complexity what has transpired is that the provider has never been able to to deliver at that level of complexity and work with people within their that that that the level of mental health need that was originally envisaged so this is a realignment of the of the contracted to reflect that that the level of acuity that they're dealing with is is not what we were paying for
any comments on on that one so I see no no no indication save on so as we now move until I think C 26 on my right
so just bear with me when I catch up on my sheet as so this is the the temporary closure and for the of the bridge and the it's suicide farmers' press coverage a couple of weeks ago yes and and service of of of of I think debate been through very cabinet with this the seasoning and the the bridge m has been closed since the Abbott COVID outbreak at the beginning of last March and and then subsequent changes to the contracting and the handing back of the contract from fusion and but also changing legislation that means that the council now has to pay actual costs to the leisure providers as was made very clear that this
that that that the centre is costing us about half a million in excess of half a million pounds a year and we need to deliver some
capital work to make it fit for purpose as well and so I think this proposal is that we should close as a pending the outcome of a and the new physical activity the new physical activity Strategy that we shouldn't be open the bridge and until the we're concluded that and and decided what sort of leisure provision is needed across the borough and going forward
comments on that from members of the Committee
Councillor Howard it's ill channel work or get
now that your microphone sorry sorry John at this and looting
he still muted
sorry there was quite passionate discussion about this in Llay ward meeting in Sydenham last night and local people are quite concerned about reduction in swimming services particularly for children so I think it's important to perhaps keep local community as informed as possible as these plans and changes develop thank you Council hoodie ankle I just like it noted please Chair the with the temporary closure of the bridge and also the temptation of Bellingham Leisure sends us that we don't have any leisure service provides us in our area of the mother of the Barrass I'm just speaking very parochially there but I just wanted it
now she says I'm I'm I'm sure all the screen measure has noted and any other comments on that which are the report says it's it's expenditure reduction proposal rather than a budget saving I think it means budget cuts anyway so it's it's expenditure reduction proposal arm so Loach Chair if I could get out of just make one point is I think knowledge and Councillor Howard's point about the that I think the local sensitivities around this and I think but James Lee and the cabinet member Councillor form are both committed at Mayor and Cabinet to and I think to talk to local residents and to listen to their concerns to make sure that that's fully fully captured
thanking on cue thank you when I move on to see 28 which is page 1 70 of the paper agenda is about the supported housing services that that thank you check that these are two contracts for supported housing that that that we have one is a parent and child service and the other is an adult placement service
the parent-child service hasn't quite frankly hasn't worked for CYP Polly's it's a very expensive services that then they haven't felt as as as delivered and likewise the Adil placement terms which is used by housing Polygon and this this hasn't been meeting needs so the the proposal going forward is to make this cut of 100 16 thousand going up her to
the 253 thousand in total next year as it the following year
and making sure that we've got alternative provisions in place and at colleagues in at joint commissioning I working closely with CYP and housing colleagues to make sure that we get a better model in place at less cost
thank you
comments on that from anyone
I see no indication so we know that now
I am minded again that some your your brief with a nighter didn't mention this but again we have a political discussion about another's 8 8 0 forces of the commercial approach again our if you could recap briefly are some and we discuss that in the past and disgusted elsewhere at a couple of nights ago birds just this this is about Sam at introducing charging for certain elements essentially appropriate fee yes air thank thank you Chair so they that that that the Care Act brought in a a powerful local authorities to make an annual charge for service users who have been financially assessed as having to pay for all the care themselves essentially it they've got capital or or assets valued at more than about 24 thousand pounds 25 thousand pounds the
prior to that many councils Edwards simply asked people just to go away and make their own arrangements and the Care Act actually I think did the right thing in saying the councils should still have a duty if people want that service to provide that service and give assurances and and enable people to use the checks and balances that the local authority has in place and also indeed benefit from and the better rates that local authorities can and broker so on the basis of that the Care Act M and nameless to levy a charge not to make a profit but to cover the reasonable costs of delivering that service and we're suggesting that them that we bring that in attic to cover the costs of air providing that service but also being aware the people will receive a a better quality service or level of monitoring that otherwise they may not have has and and also be able to and benefit from the that that the Council's brokering abilities in negotiation of prices
is a thank you attack hurry and concern of some members has been to ensure that some the significance of benefit for using the about purchasing power have we will call it of the Council adding we need to monitor carefully to make sure that people are getting value for money from the brokerage fee compared to the Walker price they get if they went as are amended the public to a service provider yet had an end indeed and it obviously if people wish to opt out of it and and make their own arrangements in that that back near that perfectly entitled to them to do that as well yes thank you and then they will comments or not otherwise we move on to section F which is demand management and then the NHS will be aware that some of these have been rolled into F 24 how some of they ritual our proposals from from the and then the pay for some hot and proposed to let
are still with us and when we get to that as 24 but and Furcal and F as 0 1 Adult social Care demand management just say the words about that some can I think we discussed at at they add the at budget briefing on Monday yet yesterday did we did chair and Arab output I would suggest actually that as 24 is the
is it possible to ensure that of the PAC to act 24 and as an absolute 6 and adults with learning difficulties reviewed learning or physical disability package for high cost of care and promote direct payments comments on that that Sir
quite a large cut it is it is chair but in Council best certainly will know that we the the every year young people transition from and Children's Services into adulthood and empowering with a hefty bill generally around about a million pounds a year in incur costs and that this is a problem that them most adult social care services across the country are struggling with and it's it comes round at as part of these of the what I call a cliff edge between Children's Services and and Adult social Care where the entitlements of childhood and education and things that that disappear very quickly and Benny services that provided for example by Education or a statutory rights and educator apart Education Health and Care plans and will will will not be there in in as it life and
what the chap that challenge I think for us as as as as a council and I think as as coded as corporate parents as well is to try to make sure that we help young people and to be as independent as possible at the appropriate time in their lives and and rather than waiting until an somebody hits the 18th birthday and then suddenly and say that they've got to be independent we want to work with young disabled people to to help them to be
the move incrementally towards independence to have the right infrastructure in place as well that they aren't having to go to you shyly holes in the country and for their 16 to that 16 to 25 education that actually we're able to build on the assets that we've got in borough and and with Lewisham College other learning Lewisham and and our own schools make sure that we've got good alternatives that are local that keep people with their families with their communities if we do that well and I worked in a couple of places where we have successfully deliver this we have made marked reductions in the budget pressures but more importantly with kept people close to home with that me does with their families and help them to become independent earlier in their lives and are treated people as adults and at the earliest opportunity
thank you Councillor Kershaw sort you had question was about this topical Dylan overlook your time before
you overlooked me I tell them all the time I apologise at that is find the varying degrees of doubt yeah yeah things of things have moved on then since then but I think that that that we have to be if I can just say no
that I have an interest in that set have a relative who has a learning disability will be recorded body thousand because of any any carry on that sometimes the language which were use you know talking about shining holes in the come tree I don't think is is awfully helpful town I will say that that you know some times the the options that are offered people and I don't quite a lot of people who ha have had to seek education outside of Lewisham and they're not seeking shining holes what they seeking is is a place that will actually to 8 their child or young person that that quite often and there is no place and therefore Lewisham really does need to develop the service so that people don't have to look elsewhere but unsure that very few people are looking for shining All's that that there is definitely particularly I think sometimes when it comes to an sick from education and college education there are shortfalls in Lewisham and people are pushed into looking and for Education elsewhere and they would much prefer that there there was a a suitable alternative within within Lewisham and I think we do have to to watch language about what drives people to make choices I think that but absolutely fair point how suppression of the only
I think the only thing I would say is I have
seen and work with families in the past who have and been given to get been given very nice brochures around things that an have never quite translated in their experience into reality and but I take your point and I would reiterate that that that what we've got to do is to make sure that we drive up the quality of our own services in the borough to make sure we but services wherever possible that are fit for the residents
thank you so charm and am I right and that everything else is cut is going to come under as 24 at yes yes Chair and as own 9 as 0 9 it has those reduction saddled passenger transport is that and I've 21st well said 0 sorry chaired that yes it at that that won't is
there is a strategic review because as as as you will know there are other other cuts proposals around transport her hopes school transport and things in from CYP they're Kevin she and is is leading a strategic review transport so it that will be dealt with their but we in Adult social Care up our already and
I I think looking looking because of the what has happened with covert and our day services and things like that and and what will transpire with at 24 and we need to look at what sort of a services were going to be going forward to that that it it's been picked up in several different ways
personal responsibility ultimately was directly to the Kevin she answer yours it is it kept that about that that this Kevin sheds for I'll get it thank you think so if we move on then to after 34 which subsumes up an F1 and 7 and as 8
some thank you Chair so and the the
that the scale of the of the cuts of the council has to deliver I think are up have been mentioned so many times that we probably I won't go through all of that again and adult social care is is the biggest single budget in the council and so I think the bones being thrown down for us to make sure that we are using our resources to best effect and over the last three years and
the the team ended I had said it was it pre-dates me have made sterling efforts in moving towards a and much more strengths based assets based approach which and builds upon community resilience and community resources and we've also
and built up many fabulous arrangements with our health partners and that that has delivered better Alkan's of people
but we know that there is more work that we can do so for example at the moment that we spend more than more ethics but 1 point for 1 point 5 million pounds a year on 1 2 1 services when people are erm mainly older people with challenging behaviour intervals and if people are people people's level of of agitation and distress is like that week I would be expected that we would be looking for a therapeutic intervention rather than a Magrittean bluntly would call a minder and to to be managing that we mainly to provide those services in the short term to help the body through an acute period but we shouldn't be relying upon that as as a long-term solution likewise we have them
people coming through our hospital system and we have way too many people ending of in long term care the
the best practice rate of admissions for people going into long-term care through from from hospitals is about 1 percent of discharges for Lewisham we have about 5 percent of of discharges result in in admissions into into long-term care and that's doesn't put us out of kilter with the rest of London but it does put us out of kilter with best practice so we know that by working differently with our health partners we can make significant improvements to and people's lives by getting them back home and getting good wrap-around therapy services to keep them independent and working with our reablement service to to Ptit to
to settle them at home and build people's confidence again so those are some of the the very practical ways that we are with with pushing are ourselves to be able to do more about that sooner we know that we've got good
and arrangements in place with our domiciliary care providers and we know that we but current contract that are up for review we won't change the relationship with them to a much more strategic partners so that we can really trust and build on their strengths and assets and actually use them and use those those partnerships to provide better pathways for their staff into a more
in it the UN and interpreting their careers and and give her a and a skills opportunity for our health and social care services locally as well we know that and we do have them
the the one place we know that we were out of kilter enough and arrangements are for people with learning disabilities are compared to our statistical neighbours we need to do some work on our commissioning and contracting arrangements there and because although the numbers at are small with the numbers of people relative to the numbers of older people we support the and the costs are markedly different his me
and he come in some that
I think Qatar had been concerns expressed about the potential outsourcing services and although we acknowledge that at GP with applied and I think we be looking for assurances that any future employees who were not covered by 2 p would have comparable condition service including receding London living wage and other benefits of the to pit staff had received Rick when want to see two two tiers of staff in outsourced contracts
thank you Chair out of adequate I don't think them
a part of this proposal is actually that we we review what sort of model we'd even so with stepped back from that that ecstasy proposal itself it may be that we get to a place where we come back with that as being what recommendations but where we want to approaches him or strategic manner rather as with all of the options as a whole and I think as I said to this committee before the value that we get out of a good
Enablement Service certainly is worth its weight in gold so and we need to make sure that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak on that and I would like to reserve the full answer about whether or not we would be looking to recommend out sourcing until we've done add more work on this review and had when we review report by
with where I would be aiming to bring a a an of Data Saver some specificity by by your next meeting and has written and you have sufficient talent and resources to undertake the review yes we are seeking some external support because we'd that I think the level of analytics and
that the word that the word is escaping me and I think the let the levels of supported Bernie but also I think some possibly some some additional mentoring for staff and managers so that we will take they will they will pass on skills to our staff to be able to take some of this forward as well I know that some excellent work has been done elsewhere of inheriting a our neighbours in Greenwich and with with with with some with some external support that help with data and analytics to make sure that we're looking in the right places and getting the best
I Councillor Howard kicks waving
and carry sorry about that John and could I just ask Tom whether you think this is an indicating a sort of revolution in a Outerly care and as far as you expect many more people to be at home
and to perhaps be having at home services but we know don't we from the lockdown that the isolation of elderly people particularly those who are shielded and so on has been very gruelling for them
and does it mean that we're going to need better services in in day time activities for the elderly as well as for learning disability because we don't want all of those people just completely isolated at ome
I I I think we do need to make sure that it's a whole lot of people having said that having spent now too much time over the years in residential nursing homes I I I think that anybody who's in there is generally feels very isolated and it's it's one of those statistical facts that I know that levels of depression in older people are three times rest of the population but the levels of depression in people in care homes are nine times that of the rest of the rest of the population so the
Keep and and people will end what we want to do is build up a assisted offers people the chance to stay at home and to keep as many of their links with their family with their faith groups with their friends and communities and when necessary that we have more formal arrangements in place through
befriending schemes and things like that
and if absolutely necessary than we provide more formal services but it I want people to be able to continue to use the links that that that they have bought own when my mother was am housebound for many years at
I've said more than once that she was more at home watching the Gulf and the cricket on Sky Sports than any anything I could ever provide an but and and she has links with her local church and that that deter and she was very very happy and other people have other an answers very frail at the moment cheesy much more socially active she wants to see people all the time so it's about what works for people and where they are in their lives and we've got to make sure that asked that we don't try to provide one size fits all
OK thank you Councillor Jack Wilshere under Standing orders
there are some pretty speak again share and the it says that you you want to modernise and transform building base building vase provision
and this was looked at last year and and they were significant issues are amongst the the people that use the services and that that was the provision for for older people where there there are things like Heritage appropriate centres and things like this the people were very unhappy about the thought of of of losing
and and and trying to think how many years is since they was the big change in the Learning Disability Day diaper vision the building based provision so it seems that these things have already been looked at and haven't been a a roaring success so how do you propose to to consider this next transformation
the I think you need to be very clear about that that the the proposals around the Calabash widow I think we answered it is seeking to revisit about Ed unless unless the people who use services said they didn't want to go ready more than a course we would review that will be of that that isn't going to be the focus I think the and the focus is around our Learning Disability centres we've got what I would describe as quite traditional models and we've got a lot of building based services and we we we should be trying to build up a a good robust community of or the people want to use the people of your will vote with their feet and opt into at the moment we don't have that to the extent that I think we could have we've got your some excellent service of that's not to say that they aren't good at that and and learning from other boroughs
and I think that we can build on what we have got and deliver something that will enrich people's lives if I can come back on that says it is only a matter of a few years since the last and I would call make every organisation I just wonder how
that is that has failed and and this next one or if you consider its failed and how this next one will differ because there there was a fairly major reorganisation any a few years ago I have to say Councillor pursued predates the I don't know what was there before
OK that's as a standard the do look into the mega changes out-earned already
I'd like any other comments Council houses use your hand still offers up again no sorry it's not now
and any other comments on F 20 4 and those item subsumed into it I think we need then to move to wards considering what referral recommendation we will make to public accounts Select Committee on the 2nd of February IEDs Councillor Smith did you want to come in now
your muted sorry so no unfair to get the thing switched off thematic buzzing using your at this point or later in the meeting was it doesn't really matter it wasn't relevant to any of the coup snuff so whenever you feel like it chose not to go ahead now then well then we can submit towards winding
asked to register it's it's probably bit of the wall I'm not really sure where it set but 0 we don't have any other business on giving you the opportunity to put in now thank you when I write advised it's only
I'm wondering about we've got and we've got a vaccination centre in Lurgan in Forest Hill I'm not going to question the queues etc. I know that's been resolved what I want to know is are the parking restrictions around the vaccination centres being lifted while the vaccination centres are in operation to a significant number paying were going to have to drive to them
well I'm I'm not quite sure how to deal with this because it wasn't on the agenda I think the the correct approach is probably down I'm sure Deputy Mayor will confirm is to write the Mayor's office the real earthy at the business or against physically business Panel on off on January the 26 there will be a report updating the Council's response to COVID I'm sure at the Executive marital confirmed that
fine funds an urgent I just didn't know where to ask another do thank you
thanks so Tom did you want carried yes it is it's just on that specific point as I cut I I can't speak with any
around all of the vaccination sense but certainly when the first one opened its in John's we did put arrangements in so that there was at the ability for people to be every bit to be less this diligence shall we say or more gentle with the parking and if if memory serves me right I think that we have we've recognised that where that the parking and using this as well I Downham Health Centre not not the same issue but in other places where there's no ready parking many of the people going especially at the moment will be ill people 80 plus will not be able to walk very far that they would then that when we would be relaxed about that as well
thank you for that can find similar that interlude if we can move towards our recommendations that people wished to submit to the public accounts Select Committee and as others will be meeting next Monday to discuss so and political responsible so I think so if if we go back through on I had some those my Tranham sure John Barnes John due have any any major highlights that were pyramid Francesco minnows quickly while it yes I mean I think that's a big work had won the jumps out was the power of attorney service yet I may on the back of the
at be brought brother 0 8 and as I think we we are we would be asking the Executive to reconsider that proposal recommendation that the Council continue provided in-house and charged so I'd rats at cost I noted that one OK and a close unwilling or going back and I think I think that we had although it wasn't on the Executive Directors of list we I think I think we had a satisfactory answer and smoking cessation which has been 0 4 I think we had a
a response on the 05 subjected Provisor that's the we remove barriers to taking up the the disabled facilities grant each year it's actually spent it
I B 8 and we've just talk about unwell was what pulses your cats up the reduction discussion in that an award of of concessionary fares wicked discussed this back in November I know shows anything people won't add tonight
An improved user better Care Fund and improved better Care Fund again
does anyone have any specific proposal to put on that I think it's an ad being clear about timescale for the review and its or is it how he uses altering back of reporting there yet so the time scale and when when will get a report back on that
John you got that
it made a note of any major no 5 miles gagged and those of you know if if you not upsetting
sorry about that I am he has learning and fail purchase I think the point made is at we'd like to see adult learning running 12 months a year they as battle far for Gomes cannabis agreed and I think to DJing as for
yeah yeah OK fine and so I think we would like to see a provision 12 months of year and and also
I support to ensure that there will be proper jobs available yet as well yes I'm
so we will not sit see 13 which is about the and the other though were are concerned along with C 15 about and levels of funny of sexual health services we need to ensure that said work is done to address high levels of teenage pregnancies and in some instances the
volume of abortions also and and subsequent pegging pregnancies shortly after abortions as well I think I think it's I think we did be very very cautious about them or sexual reproductive health and contraceptive cuts this so I never known has a form of words at I think it's concerns about about cuts and the limiting of the planned increasing lock activity which I think is probably and
will impact on younger women who I believe tend to
the used news last more than so the the more established methods
so I think we we we then had the substance Misuse cuts at the cut of the tearful resent was adding Hughes explained that it wasn't for full-time beds being cutters at afore 12 week sessions or 12 week residences per year possibly so I think that was made clear and
mentioned see 15 say 16 than sadistically restructuring integration of this fall it's Azam a rationalisation rather that Rodney integration disaggregation rationalisation and any comments on her concentrate reconfiguration of the supported housing pathway especially ensure
that seems to have been not being much used or slaughtered possibly school Housing Services we talked about this works on going with housing CYP to ensure similar provisions in place so I didn't hear too much concern about that anyone disagrees do shout out or wave your hand and closure approach I think that's at the point being made about their we understand there is a the the power to try for brokerage I think we've got to demonstrate that the charge remains a brokerage continues to offer value for money we be ensured people do have adequate information upon which to make their choices and that some bulk purchasing does add value that they you at our in pocket after they pay the brokerage fee compared to what they get if it was possible for them get something walking up because some of the rises might not want to deal with individuals they might only want to offer contracts yet again as a fair assumption of a fair explanation Tom
yesterday I think I think the only thing is that actually it's ended frequently a lot of the providers at once the private individuals to go directed and so that they can take a little bit more money off them yes yes so so going to go through the council as a selling point for using the council services get it's a market opportunity for our our communications team structure say we've got a very good in has procreate service and a
while the credit quality assurance yes with we recommend not just not the City see that week we give you quality assurance as well throughout the process from beginning to end and until others helplines of Ireland and things like that it if there are issues need resolving with safe might find more difficult to navigate if they weren't part of the Pro Krige
package that the absolutely could make a point in general John that when changes are made communication needs to be really clear to the the groups that might have been using the service in a different way before
can I give the example
for instance that certain services are going on line that used to be within a clinic setting yet it it is the is communication good within these sexual health services for instance from shall I'm sure we noted that none of
but lots lots of things like you know increasing transport costs and so on people need to to be informed and prepared and you know
there's an unwitting I will always be outcomes of the review some will include communications strategy will it not yes yes we had the right of communications are able to get on the ball absolutely yes Nigel model poses the fetishes sorry am I may be about to come to the side of Outer
fisheries there was a very helpful suggestion from Councillor best met a corporate approach to the employment of disabled people involving the Beragh and it's partners which I think is really helpful suggestion so again if you pass that I think I've begun a very good point well made Nigel Jiang make a note that place and so then becoming too and of Hill as I think the final point I like I guess which has weep we're looking out at the demand management or the ones in section F which I think come
we we we looked at in in in some detail under F 24 blooding we note we note that there is good review
that we expect to see there is the report back at the next meeting of this Committee which is a February at the 25th I believe John pretty 5th February yes and
Tom didn't come in now or was as was an old message despite up don't get no Chair is just something I thought that which I meant to say earlier around F 24 ethic pertinent to this as well it's just to also let the committee know that we are also working with the Chair of the disabled People's Commission around this element of this review as well
thank you sir are commented that we note that this will be coming back to this committee on Saturday the 25th
and and we also not FO 9 is a there's Kevin Sheehan as directorate is leading on that is responsible for that that's are our service reconfiguration or re-letting or whatever it'll become so are there any other comments then to general right these up his notes of up which will our work as as as a referral the point I just gone through we will send that into the public councillor committee which will be on of February the second
that is a meeting in public as is this and Members of this Committee can attend I will attend
and presents the recommendations in other members of the Committee 1 2 our see Car the permission of the Chair to address I commit I'm sure it'll be granted I'm almost as a Councillor at welcome to attend of course and it will go to Mayor and Cabinet the following night on that February the third set a time scale for how this happens so we will send the same it will make despatch of for of public councillor committee to Councillor bested and say you want to add its conclusion 3 will be having a political discussion about these points in another place yes no thank you very much I think you've been very thorough chairing going through these cuts and of course you know the important thing is to get the reviews back promptly yeah so that you've got turn assurances on progress through the but obviously recognising Mr. in the middle of a pandemic so and I know it an ENO into thank term and D and Joan because it's such a challenge when we're having all those day to day and challenges it certainly isn't business as usual and on top of that we've got a very difficult Budget challenge so I'm just so appreciative of the work the officers are putting in to juggle so much and really look after our residents in such a quality and concerning way yes I can door satire thing and I think that has been heard by as well but I think we can't we I think it it's obviously not just our staff if the NHS partners there isn't local commissioning group far and our officers as well and is partly because of the pressures of parent not able to attend our Committees at the moment because they got a health service to run and we fully appreciate we don't judge them adversely for that either with thank them we thank you Tom so thank you with that we have some other items of the Committee agenda as the clock is against us but I do thank cut Tom for joining us tonight and David Austin also for being available on call if need be so thanks to Tom thanks to David Councillor best you are very welcome to stay but Sir
I fully appreciate if you if you had other things to do so

5 Select Committee work programme

OK so so so we move on now quickly speedily John to the the Select Committee work programme and he is very quickly the Work Programme is in your agenda packs on page 257 is to spread sheets the approach still stands next meeting that the Committee has been advised only take urgent items so it to Isis have noted from this meeting are an update on the adult social care review and an update on the better Care Fund with you appear items don't count your new gender it gets when he's disgusted gender plan in between and which I believe is in a couple of weeks time yes we have a gender planning meeting on I believe the 29th of January so I am yet to have anything that they wished to us to consider and they're in mind we are operating under COVID rules which means that so I will be guided by very very strongly guided by officers advice as to whether the capacity to take items
given that as we have heard a few moments go business as usual is not a thing like business-as-usual we are on our officers under extreme pressure looking extremely hard as at those of the NHS and the Clinical Commissioning Group so any any any suggestions for items to be considered at the next Committee I think must bear that in mind and you must are members must appreciate that
we may find it necessary to push them further down the line setting I think that probably an sums it up we will be having a gender planning we we will be going we will be submitting stuffed to the public councillor committee if people do want to speak that Select Committee about anything we talked about a night I'm sure Councillor card will allow that because be the star chamber as do tend to be very thorough a gives the opportunity for you
to comment on a cut made in by other or by and directorates and also other members to comment on cuts in adult social care as well so it is a very thorough wide ranging committee meeting that night for those who've never been before so please attend if you want to so am I think that is the workprogramme then is it not Johnno he concluded and
that brings us to the end of this evening's session at the next meeting as I think I said earlier Thursday the 25th of February at 7 30 pm up as we draw to an end I thank all Members of Committee and officers have attended tonight and and our Councillor Sue the tens under Standing orders thank you for your contributions I thank those of you watching from home that NEM as the Pressel so so I'll ask our technician at Flushing gallery to shut down the webcast and confirmed to Members